Freeflying | 2022-03-04 08:59:13 UTC | #203 When you go through the dsm diagonosis process Einsteins name crops up. Along with a ton of other famous people with autism. It’s is a feature they all share. Yes many of us can do quite well. And are quite bright. But were social awkward. I know I’m not going to be solving the theory of everything anytime soon. However much I like too. Nor am I at Einstein level of mathematics prowess. Biological he had a higher brain density. that allowed him to do maths at the level he did. His autopsy proved that! Generally Einstein had a few messy relationships among his pier group and family members. This is well Documented and survived to present day. Just ask anyone with autism about Einstein. I always try to be realistic with goals and focus. Sure I get confused and muddled along the way. I try going the general knowledge route the best I can. I’m sorry if I don’t come off the way I’d hoped. It is a pain in my backside. No doubt about it! I don’t mean to be unsympathetic. Like most keen eyed people. I observed for wind energy to work. it must displace one mass, with another. that easy numbers. Didn’t think that was anything new. Just par for the course. Take that as you will? Spent last night thinking about leaving the forum. going it alone for a time. Questioned my worth and sanity for even trying. If hydroelectric power can get to 98% efficiency? It must be therefore possible? under fluid dynamics. to achieve the similar for wind. I’m not walking a conventional path by any stretch of the imagination. Or going about it in a normal fashion. It must be possible to tweak the physics. Be that, compression of the airflow? So it has a higher density. Changing the airflows velocity? Change the volume of air flow? Reducing friction? so on… and soo on…I didn’t think that was ungrounded. Considering that is how steam turbines work. Going to sign out. And watch from a far. ------------------------- PierreB | 2022-03-04 10:07:43 UTC | #204 Hi @dougselsam : good news abounds. We have @Freeflying , Einstein's equal. Soon Dave Santos will be back, he who is the equal of the Wright brothers. If they work together, all the problems of AWE will eventually be solved: in yo-yo mode the rigid wings will finally produce energy greater than the energy consumed during the reel-in phase; the flexible wings of SkySails and KitePower, which already produce positive energy, are going to be marketed everywhere; SuperTurbine(tm) and similar rotating devices will finally fly over 10 m high, and so on. ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-04 12:43:57 UTC | #205 Have your laughs for now boys! I bet you last punching bag got tired and left the group. https://cat.org.uk/ Is something you might want to consider? I don’t know Dave Santos. Or why you rib him mercilessly? I don’t suppose he mentioned torsion spring as part of the winding mechanism? Much like a tape measure? Oh, I never said I’m Einstein equal. Just had his sort of problems. I thought I was the one who had the problems. in the end It don’t matter. It’s unfortunate that when informed of someone difficulties. you go all out do denigrate and degrade them. Correct me sure. Degrade me no. Thats no way to do business. I suspect there are many from all walks, and all backgrounds on here. That would not be impressive to to this. I’ve said before it one of my many hobbies. My mistake is believing it would get any better. Instead of working with them you berated. Some who might have Allied allied themselves with the cause. I know there is a fine line between a joke and damn right taking the p out of someone for idiosyncrasies. I question the delusions argument. It not about money for me. its energy independence. Money don’t interest me, I rather have the materials to make things than money. It that simple. The more I can get out of what I can find near by the better. That is part of the challenge. Sure to find who is a biggest girls blouse? Somewhat later. If we talk engineering? talk engineering .even if it is turn of last centre stuff. If there a step to take? it is that! Freeing ourselves of hydrocarbons addiction. is not going to be easy! especially because of how ingrained it is. This ain’t the first rodeo! I doubt it will be my last. Reality is a messy ball of string. I’m met bigger and uglier peoples along my road. Lived to tell the tale. As I know we are going in different direction. Just some days walk along side. others no where in sight. Live with differing experience levels. If you conquer the world I’m happy for you. I just think there room for micro generation in awe. I’m happy to give it a try. Good luck! ------------------------- PierreB | 2022-03-04 14:06:00 UTC | #206 I make it clear that I have esteem for the accomplishments of Dave Santos and his theoretical views on AWE. https://forum.awesystems.info/t/scaling-laws-in-awes-design/171 Mothra is a Santos' giant kite from tarps: https://forum.awesystems.info/t/completing-mothra-including-variants/799 ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-04 14:22:10 UTC | #207 Seems like everyone I know in clean energy claims to have some challenge: ADHD, OCD, "anal", "dyslexic", "the spectrum", "lazy" "not in the right circles", "broke", "no time", "unorganized", "no tools", "no funding", "too busy", "stuck in neutral" - sometimes our worst enemy is ourselves - welcome to normal. I'm still waiting for someone to simply claim: "I am half-crazed and there is no reasoning with me". ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-04 15:23:40 UTC | #208 [quote="PierreB, post:206, topic:1610"] Mothra is a Santos’ giant kite from tarps: [/quote] When I met this crew for at their HAWP conference in 2009, my impression was they were all really crazy, unlikely to ever make any power, ever, and that their main interest was really simply flying kites. Seems like that was accurate. They started out bragging about how easily AWE would surpass what they called "windtowers" (meaning wind turbines, which used towers). By the end, they were relegated to merely claiming that "just flying a kite" was AWE, since it took energy to keep the kite in the air. I thought that version of an arch kite was interesting, but a bit overdone, overstated, and overrated, considering it never generated power. I don't know if it was an original idea, but the arch kite is a known kite festival feature: https://intothewind.com/heavens-gate-arch.html The thing is, nobody ever showed how to generate any power using an arch kite. It was basically an incomplete demonstration, with a celebration ahead of any results. Should have built a smaller demo with a way to generate power. Mostly it seemed to me just an excuse for a bunch of people to go to the beach and eat some mushrooms. :) I think the closest they came to making any power was using sand to hold it down, then when it dumped the sand off during launch, claiming that sand dump as "making power". As I recall, after about ten years of endless gibberish with no meaningful power generated, the story became that the industry was "too dependent on power meters" or something like that. This was like saying you have a new way to tie your shoes, but when you are finished, your shoes are still untied. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-04 17:04:53 UTC | #209 Also something to note: Whenever the occasional new person to wind energy comes in "like a hurricane" indicating their intent to revolutionize the field, mentioning as a side note, for example, how they plan to overcome the Betz coefficient, what they do not realize is how exactly they fit the pre-existing pattern. It's like, once they've invoked "Einstein", they are compelled to declare Betz as probably invalid, and when knowledgeable people finally stand up and say "enough!", they almost HAVE to claim to be a victim, calling the experienced people trying to clue them in "mean", or whatever. We're used to being called names, and at some point we can no longer let it overly bother us. In the end, they inevitably degenerate to name-calling and blaming the victim (levelheaded people who resist the bullshit). This is par for the course. In one case, it went on for years. If there is anyone close to "Einstein" in wind energy, it is Betz himself. He derived the Betz coefficient on paper, 100 years ago, purely theoretically, using logic and a little arithmetic, and it has turned out to be right ever since. Anyone can follow his reasoning, and if it were invalid, anyone would be free to show it as invalid. On paper, or in real life, the name of the game in wind energy is "Talk is cheap" and "Prove it". Excuses are everywhere. We all live in a sea of endless excuses. In wind energy, excuses don't matter. It is results that matter. ------------------------- Windy_Skies | 2022-03-04 19:25:44 UTC | #210 [quote="Freeflying, post:203, topic:1610"] Questioned my worth and sanity for even trying. [/quote] Everyone does that. And not everyone is going after you, that's Doug mostly. He likes to do that. Don't mind him too much. He is sometimes right, but mostly a broken record. If you think a comment goes over the line you can flag it - by clicking on the three dots next to the reply button and clicking the flag - , and one of the moderators can take a look at it. Several of Doug's comments crossed the line, but we don't always get around to dealing with them. In your user settings you can also "ignore" users so you don't see their comments anymore. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-04 19:35:46 UTC | #211 This could be good practice for analyzing press-release breakthroughs. Saw this article about solar thermal steam injected into oil wells for energy storage (below) Anyone care to hazard a guess as to the outcome? https://www.powermag.com/solar-developer-has-plan-to-turn-oil-wells-into-energy-storage/?oly_enc_id=1327J1654290F1P Video: https://app.frame.io/reviews/c0c1e5a8-1408-4ba5-b6bf-b9c63624506e/8f8f21d3-ed12-4494-9677-f97ef5a74da3 ------------------------- Rodread | 2022-03-04 19:45:08 UTC | #212 Flagging wasn't working for me recently. I saw a few posts crossing into just plain mean abusive and tried to flag them. Seems to be working again now Ta ------------------------- tallakt | 2022-03-04 22:09:31 UTC | #213 Hell no. But then spotting a loser is not hard. Spotting the unicorn is. - oil production will end before these have a meaningful market share - most people in oil would rather use gas to avoid investment costs and intermittency of power - drilling is pretty expensive - we dont need energy storage this bad. Its going to be too costly for a pure renewable solution - losses in converting heat energy in the ground into something useful - heat will spread to where you cant get it back efficiently I think a lot of these ideas just boil down to people using the most low tech solutions they find (storing energy as heat in rocks) because they are clueless about the current technological status quo (electricity and batteries). my take on this. I hope for their sake Imissed something ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-05 06:44:52 UTC | #214 @Windy_Skies @Rodread Thanks you ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-06 08:51:01 UTC | #215 Taking what I had about me. I’ve have done my own demo. Taking what I know to be true. Applied the screwdriver trick to logical conclusion. Built this mock up https://youtu.be/07X_LxOtTyY Im fully aware it can be rigged to almost anything. Scalable to the extreme. Not bad start for soil pipe sellotape and cardboard Hairdryer test. To check principles. Using an involute and six blades rotor. Freeflying for sure. Ripe for improvements. Cross flow type improvements. It reminds a-little of a sport whistle. ![image|225x225](upload://iUuhDJYE7DtxrDwyeVaoID1ffRe.jpeg) and the ancient symbol of othela due to air flow patterns. ![image|219x230](upload://ucuDv0YaQgl48E9QiYO6ZkgQ411.png) As well as the sign of the fish. ![image|275x183](upload://hkqmH5aMWNDXjdVi9L5nWLoSt83.png) Speaking with a 3D printers. So I can get a rapid soild prototype made for further testing. ------------------------- Windy_Skies | 2022-03-07 09:35:59 UTC | #216 [quote="Freeflying, post:215, topic:1610"] Speaking with a 3D printers. [/quote] They'll want to to have .STL files. Do you know any CAD software? And at what size would you like to have it? You could buy your own 3d printer also. It looks like you could recreate this with 2 circles with slots in them for the blades. You could design that in a 2d (vector) drawing program if you wanted to get that laser cut. Or you could print it out on thick paper and use an exacto knife to cut out the slots and blades. ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-07 14:10:32 UTC | #217 Stl file sent to the printers. Saturday 5/3/22 I’m waiting on reply. as of yet, haven’t heard anything. What I’ve designed this on Tinkercad. [Go turbine generator.stl|attachment](upload://hNe14CkBAV2Kr8ZbZtV2HYrVv9s.stl) (246.1 KB) I know it will need a few mods. might look like Pac-Man turbine once done. It will need its on stand but that just a few wedges. If I recall correctly? this is 220mm tall model 80mm 16 blade rotor Love to have my own 3D printer. Just out of my reach for now. Not even going to try bringing the folks on board. for all the drama that will ensue. Would love to set up in my folks coal shed. As i know I could get it going as a toy. To raise the funds to go bigger. Steel and concrete bigger. I know it can be made from wood or bamboo. It a bit of Catch 22 atm, trying not to get trouble. So any help is welcome? I’m completely open source. I’m also aware if the rotor? is fully made from steel it will act as the flywheel. It will also take magnetic imprinted nicely. depending on steel composition. The coils can be bedded in to the involuted structure. Or inside the rotor itself. Which would make it more like an induction motor. I’m aware you can set it out as an lazer print. Though it was one bit where, my attention slipped while trying to learn that side. Thankfully I have a YouTube creator. who works in the field I can learn from in my subscription and touch up. I also have Eagle labs near me. Should the Printer not get back to me. I am able in an afternoon, to get the rotor parts from 3d to 2d net. If you want to see that? Had just imagined it to be resin printed. Just for easy of manufacturing. Definitely think it could be mass produced. Contracted out, to give good coverage. I will Update once I know more. ------------------------- Rodread | 2022-03-07 14:54:40 UTC | #218 Nice to see the file. Most online 3D printers will now quote based on the volume, materials, and infill profile of the uploaded stl A good enough FDM 3d printer will probably cost about the same as the print they quote you. Quality of 3d printing for blades however... will be rough ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-07 17:11:00 UTC | #219 Just looked the cheapest I could find was £150 with postage. definitely something to consider though. even if it a sizeable investment. Might make a shout out on SM. to some friends I know ,who may be able to help out? Then see if I got some takers. Thanks for the heads up! ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-07 17:14:45 UTC | #220 [quote="Windy_Skies, post:210, topic:1610"] Everyone does that. And not everyone is going after you, that’s Doug mostly. He likes to do that. Don’t mind him too much. He is sometimes right, but mostly a broken record. If you think a comment goes over the line you can flag it - by clicking on the three dots next to the reply button and clicking the flag - , and one of the moderators can take a look at it. Several of Doug’s comments crossed the line, but we don’t always get around to dealing with them. In your user settings you can also “ignore” users so you don’t see their comments anymore. [/quote] "A comment goes over the line" - yeah sure, whenever someone speaks truth, you are "the victim". They are "bad", you are "good. Sure, know-nothings. Over a decade ago I flagged most every wannabe AWE effort out there as "idiots, idiots, idiots. I clearly stated ALL of the multi-million-dollar "efforts" out there were spewing complete nonsense and had no idea about wind energy nor what the heck they were even doing, and that NONE of the claims of any of the highest-profile, most publicized claims of powering "X-hundred homes in Location Y by date Z" were correct. Well, a billion dollars later, was I correct? Yes. How could one person dare to stand up to a thousand people spewing a billion dollars worth of lies? The problem was, and still is, naive people by the hundreds, not even understanding the most basic aspects of the field they have inadvertently attempted to enter: **wind energy**, not comprehending what was already known in the art. It seems that in most cases, they are surprised there are even any standards whatsoever that should be applied to them. They really thought that adding "airborne" to wind energy made it so the basic reality of providing reliable power at a competitive cost did not apply to what they felt was a legitimate "fantasy-world" that, like some drug, could "rescue" them from reality - insulate them from any standards, from any results. This strange phenomenon is NOT restricted to AWE AT ALL, but has always been a part of wind energy - complete know-nothings declaring in no uncertain terms that some "new" (usually old, unknown to them) idea is going to "change everything". Paul Gipe and I are only two of the wind people who have bothered to stand up to the nonsense. There are many many of us, but just a few who bother to "run the gauntlet" of directly confronting the endless parade of "idiots idiots idiots" who pretend to have mastered a well-developed art which they have no clue about. But to the teeming, ignorant throngs of wannabe wind energy inventors, especially when assembled into an actual group of mostly just such highly-insistent "idiots", we reasonable people can seem like a lonely lot, by far outnumbered by the "idiots" who think they know more than us, while knowing little-to-nothing. Yes it has been a well-established pattern, for as long as I can remember. A MAJOR aspect of "the pattern" has always been the EXTREME ABUSE we are subject to by the most extreme of the highly-insistent know-nothings. We are called every name in the book, and when in a forum controlled by such "idiots", the usual response is to delete or censor the valid information we kindly bother to provide. But we can take the abuse. We are happy to help clarify the existing knowledge for those actually looking for real, accurate guidance or factual input in a sea of lies and meaningless statements of future success that in most cases is unlikely, and in many cases (like Magenn) couldn't **possibly** happen, in which, no matter how many times the delusional "idiots" watch every wrong statement of "future success" evaporate, they still willingly repeat the next lie. Sorry but it really is that stark. We are completely used to taking the brunt of the resulting frustration when wind energy schemes fail to come to fruition, because we know from long experience that it is far easier to simply "blame the messenger" of truth than to admit fault. Well, Makani failed, but I don't see them "blaming" me and Paul Gipe, do you? Hmmm, why not? I think a major part of it is people thinking their battle is with "correcting" the information freely provided by seasoned, knowledgeable people trying to clue them in, rather than taming mother nature and becoming a winner in the battle to capture the wind's energy. It is far easier to sit at a computer typing how some helpful truth-teller is "bad", as "the answer" to taming the capricious wind. They say they "will" tame the wind, but their real first move is a chicken-shit attempt to denigrate the people who actually know what the heck they are talking about. Today it all happens on the internet, but it is not new. So, have at it, dummies. Call us as many names as you want, and every time some new idiot comes along, humor them and tell them we truth-tellers are just plain bad people. Act like it is knowledgeable people holding you back, and whatever you do, don't EVER admit we have been 100% right and everyone else has been 100% wrong the whole time. We are used to it. Have fun pretending. We are here for the few reasonable people who need good information, and demands that we should just stop standing up for the truth to "spare the feelings" of the endless parade of highly-insistent know-nothings are just part of the landscape of wind ignorance that we resist as part of having learned just a little bit about wind energy from years of hard work and elbow grease. If someone thinks they know what they are doing, show us. It really is that simple. ------------------------- PierreB | 2022-03-07 18:27:53 UTC | #221 Doug, you are right, but you take too seriously what is said on this forum, starting with the AWE field. ------------------------- tallakt | 2022-03-07 19:44:42 UTC | #222 Much the same could be said for your verbose off topic rants about everyone being idiots @dougselsam. To be honest I dont read much of it. Id rather hear about your opinions on AWE rather than other people on the forum ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-07 19:47:30 UTC | #223 Hi Pierre: Well the way I see it, they have their new Dave Santos, with, as you've noted, so many similarities, and whose friends had said seemed to possibly suffer from a similar malady. Today we have a very Santo-esque new video, lasting a few brief seconds, showing no power generated, just like Santos' "blink-and-you-missed-it" videos. I think this group should therefore declare him "head of the class", or maybe "the second coming". and put him in charge of this entire operation. That way they can just "cut out the middleman" and let him directly censor anything he doesn't agree with. (I tried to be nice but it doesn't help.) Last night I awoke to find Youtube still running, spoon-feeding us videos, and was amazed to see footage of an accomplished pianist, singer, and conductor who had suffered **an infection of the brain** which destroyed his ability to form new memories. The result was a life of reliving the same 30 seconds over and over, always thinking he "just woke up", writing down what time it was, with a comment about having just awakened. LINK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_HfSnQqeyY **(Start watching it just before 53 minutes in)** The video shows his reaction to his wife entering the room. where he expresses great joy at seeing her, thinking it has been a long time since he has seen her. He always thinks the same thing, no matter how many times he sees her, or how much time she spends with him. He not only can't form new memories, but can't believe when people try to explain it to him, and gets real angry at one point. Well we can hardly blame him - what would any of us do? It makes me realize how lucky any of us are to have a brain that works anywhere close to "normal". Anyway, it was the middle of the night when I saw this, but it really woke me up, because it seemed so familiar. Lots of people I talk to point to world events and ask "How can people be so stupid as to believe what is being said - don't they remember all the previous times the same sort of stuff was said and it never times out to be true? Why do they keep repeating this nonsense? Why do they keep falling for it? What could be wrong with their brains? One such guy asks this talking about his own brother for whom we in general have the most respect and admiration. Yet in a similar way, so many people seem to have "a screw loose" in their heads! Of course it reminded me of the string of AWE efforts claiming to (in the future) power X hundred homes at location Y by date Z, or the claims of companies repeatedly claiming to have AWE systems "developed", "on the market", "shipping" etc. Like this poor gentleman always thinking it is the first time he sees his wife, when she is there on a regular basis, people here seem to fall for the same line over and over, like they've never heard it before. It just really reminds me of the willingness of people to believe people who have lied to them over and over again, as though they have no memory of the previous outcomes, or indeed people who think the whole world is brand new, with no valid standards, no rationale for the long-held beliefs of others, or indeed long-proven truths. I'm really interested to see the rest of this video. It seems to offer insights to how the world can sometimes seem so crazy. A lot of it seems to come down to basic memory, and ability to reason. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-08 03:00:03 UTC | #224 They do not even understand what a lift-based or drag-based wind energy system is. It was already the most basic categorical delineation in wind energy when I first began my research in the 1970's. Anyone can look up the difference between a lift-based wind energy device and a drag-based wind energy device. This is one of the many glaring holes in basic, established terminology and knowledge, where AWE people can always be counted on to show their seemingly perpetual and incurable ignorance. ------------------------- tallakt | 2022-03-08 09:59:11 UTC | #225 Or just accept that the terminology used for AWE differs from other wind? ------------------------- PierreB | 2022-03-08 10:26:07 UTC | #226 The problem is that AWE is an other wind... ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-08 20:32:12 UTC | #227 [quote="tallakt, post:222, topic:1610"] Much the same could be said for your verbose off topic rants about everyone being idiots [/quote] That IS the topic, and we can see the results! A whole lotta nothing! The problem has been, most AWE people do not even understand, they ARE the topic! :) ------------------------- PierreB | 2022-03-08 22:43:55 UTC | #228 Hi Doug, AWE players are not idiots. They are clever and skilled. But AWE can be a dead-end. This is what its evolution tends to show, and the inversion of drag and lift features in regard to that of current wind power does not change anything. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-08 23:34:09 UTC | #229 [quote="PierreB, post:228, topic:1610"] AWE players are not idiots [/quote] Sorry Pierre, I was once again using long-established terminology from wind energy, where it is understood that there are always people insisting they can outperform the existing wind energy industry, and so far, they have always been wrong. We just call them "idiots". Just because someone is smart and talented doesn't mean they can't occasionally act like an idiot. I probably slap myself almost every day over some thing I do where I say OMG what an IDIOT I AM!!! So please don't take it personally, and it doesn't apply to everyone. For example I don;t think it applies to you, because you haven't been insisting that some clearly whacky, poorly-performing configuration is the answer to wind energy. You have not made ridiculous promises that never come true, nor have you ripped off investors for millions of dollars pretending you have an answer. You merely explore some ideas, build occasional prototypes to try out these ideas, and contribute to the thought process that might someday lead to a successful AWE technology. So it is not you, or every AWE person, I am talking about. But really, when you are familiar with what **DOES work well** in wind energy, the constant parade of newcomers insisting that today's practitioners don't know what they are doing can only be called "idiots" from the viewpoint of actual practitioners of the well-refined art of wind energy. That is just what we call them. What else do you want us to call them? How about just "crazy"? Or maybe "Highly insistent pathological nutcases suffering from the delusion that every wrong thing they say is a breakthrough"? Too complicated. "Idiots" is the actual word used. And sometimes "crazy". They've always been there. They never stop. Before AWE, it was usually vertical-axis wind turbines or some Santo-esque strip of plastic that wiggles, a pole that shakes, or whatever - just IDIOTIC CRAP, usually long-disproven. Nonetheless, when you add up: 1) the number of projects 2) the number of people involved 3) the amount of money spent 4) the promises made and contrast that with the lack of meaningful results especially now that the whole AWE story seems to be collapsing or at least getting to be kind of an old (yawn) "story" you'd have to admit there must be a lot of idiots involved somewhere! Since I have been castigated by many "true-believers" for confidently using that term from day-one, I feel validated at this point. Before it was "How can he say that?" Now it's more like "Well, yeah, maybe he has a point..." You have to understand, as I've been explaining all along, the stupid things the AWE promoters have been saying from the very beginning were mostly ALREADY KNOWN TO BE REALLY MISGUIDED AND WRONG IN WIND ENERGY. NO PERSON **IN WIND ENERGY** EVER QUESTIONED MY USE OF THE TERM "IDIOTS". WIND ENERGY HAS ALWAYS ATTRACTED NUTCASES!!!! As I've long explained (ad infinitum?) Wind energy is **a magnet for crackpots** Airborne wind energy is a **NEODYMIUM SUPERMAGNET!!!** And the reason is simple: WIND IS INVISIBLE!!! Since wind is invisible, people can **imagine** the wind doing **exactly what they want**. But the wind does NOT do "what they want". The wind acts as the wind acts. And how to harness it is a long and hard-won art amounting to thousands of years of accumulated knowledge. The newbies know nothing of any of this. Here's what they think: 1) I am really smart 2) Wind energy is easy and the people doing it are stupid 3) I am so smart I can think of a better way without even knowing anything about how it works 4) My first shoot-from-the-hip initial impressions are more valid than 2000 years of accumulated knowledge 5) Because I am such a genius, my unstudied ideas will take over the market And they are almost always wrong! Their "shoot from the hip" initial impressions are just the exact same, typical, 100% wrong first impressions we ALL had coming in, except some of us are capable of learning! They are not capable of learning. Or they have no desire to learn. So, when you have people who are either incapable of learning, or unwilling to learn, pretending they know what they are doing and saying the actual experts do **not** know what they are doing, wasting millions of dollars on stuff that keeps failing over and over, what else could you possibly call them? Idiots. It really is that simple! ------------------------- Rodread | 2022-03-09 10:10:23 UTC | #230 As long as you're not expecting any different results from your rant @dougselsam Good to see the bilious nature of the message becoming ever more focused and distilled Keep it short ------------------------- Windy_Skies | 2022-03-09 12:21:18 UTC | #231 [quote="Rodread, post:218, topic:1610"] 3d printing for blades however… will be rough [/quote] [quote="Freeflying, post:217, topic:1610"] get it going as a toy [/quote] Starting a toy business might be a way to get experience in business. There are easier businesses to start though, and also becoming an inventor or launching a toy is much much more likely to lose you money than gain it. If you'd like to sell toys you could look at toys you'd like to sell that you think you might be able to sell and sell those. I think the idea needs more development to make it appealing as a toy. I'd start perhaps making it a self-assembly kit made from thick paper so it's cheap to send over the mail. Even if that goes nowhere it's probably a nice learning experience. Not every idea has to work. You can just start and while you develop it get a better understanding of it and see if it makes sense to take it further, ideally before you spend thousands on it. ------------------------- PierreB | 2022-03-09 13:34:22 UTC | #232 [quote="dougselsam, post:229, topic:1610"] I was once again using long-established terminology from wind energy, where it is understood that there are always people insisting they can outperform the existing wind energy industry, and so far, they have always been wrong. [/quote] Hi Doug, how do you explain that none of the wind companies granted interest for AWE? It's not just a matter of terminology. These companies quickly understood that there was no meaningful future for AWE. https://www.energyacuity.com/blog/2019-top-10-wind-turbine-manufacturers/ Where is AWE? As for me I think that although the chances are low, there might be some possibilities but not with the methods generally discussed, unless they fit in as sub-systems of a probably aerostatic whole with a high angle of elevation allowing taking up little space on the ground. ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-09 15:09:59 UTC | #233 Thankfully I know a guy who done that sort of thing. He work once for phones 4 you. has been a manager and own a 3D printer. Often referred as a hole,by some. but he’s good at what he’s does. Even if it is a quips some thing awful. I should know some point next week as he’s busy right now. I’ve also knocked up a stl file for a 6 blade rotor though will need conversion to svg. For lazer cutting. might need some work.to save on waste margins. Definitely k.I.s.s approach [Rotor blade..stl|attachment](upload://aOtHWxEWor3zLRb7Y9zczIsofD9.stl) (130.6 KB) Tinkercad. I believe I’ve a lazer cutter near by I can send it to. Though have no idea of cost. 4mm material. use what you got . could be just a case of printing / cutting the side wall. insert lolly sticks and glue with whatever you got. The last I knew a pack of lolly sticks was £1 for 250 lolly sticks. 4mm plywood or cardboards rather cheep. £15 m2 the last time I checked. If lazer cut on mass the a lot of end bits. Sold as a package deal self assembly kit. with a section of ducted pipe as a stand an easy £5 and up all day long. Which should cover the cutting or printing expenses if sold on mass. Depending complexity. the design cost margins may vary. I thought the toy route far more practical. safe bet for sure. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-09 15:10:30 UTC | #234 [quote="Rodread, post:230, topic:1610"] As long as you’re not expecting any different results [/quote] As long as you're not expecting any different results from "ascending" to a "position" of gleefully and judgementally deleting other peoples' posts, have fun pretending it is advancing the cause. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-09 16:03:27 UTC | #235 [quote="PierreB, post:228, topic:1610"] the inversion of drag and lift features in regard to that of current wind power does not change anything. [/quote] OK Pierre, just so you know, if there was a K-12 school for wind energy, the difference between a lift machine and a drag machine would be taught in Kindergarten. It is the most basic starting point for learning ANYTHING about wind energy. Let's transpose this same ignorance of basic terminology into an art you are well accomplished in: playing piano. Pretend thousands of people came along and declared they were going to supersede today's well-developed art of piano playing by playing with their feet. The stated advantage would be eliminating the legs on the piano, claiming they take up too much material. And say these same people claimed they would be able to play better than anyone in the world soon, and kept promising they would be playing Carnegie Hall or Julliard "next year". Well, your first reaction would probably be that legs on a piano were worth it, because they formed a stable support allowing consistent playing using the proven "hands" instead of unproven "feet", and that these people might have good intentions, but might also be very misguided. Clue 1: feet instead of hands Then you note that out of the thousands of people making up this movement, NOT A SINGLE ONE EVEN KNEW HOW TO PLAY PIANO. Clue 2: no knowledge of the art whatsoever Next you notice that they call a treble clef (G clef) a bass clef (F clef), and they call a bass clef (F clef) a treble clef (G clef). When you ask why, they point to some really lame patent from the 1980's that some guy with zero knowledge of piano had filed, that erroneously called a treble clef a bass clef, and called a bass clef a treble clef. Clue 3: no knowledge of established terminology Now let's say you were the **ONLY actual piano player** who decided to engage these thousands of people in discussion, and you were horrified to see that they were SO IGNORANT of music in general, let alone piano playing, that they DID NOT EVEN KNOW A TREBLE CLEF from a BASS CLEF! Then let's say when you tried to explain the well-established treble and bass clef, they WANTED TO ARGUE WITH YOU and somehow say "Well, when you are playing a piano with no legs , using your feet, the terminology is different" How stupid would you then see these people as being? Unbelievably stupid? So stupid that the word "stupid" was not even sufficient to describe them? What would you call them? I think "idiots" would be on the milder side. You'd probably want to strangle them, and the only thing stopping you would be you might injure your hands. ------------------------- Windy_Skies | 2022-03-09 16:13:31 UTC | #236 [quote="Freeflying, post:18, topic:1799"] At that scale **sure thing**. However? if a small enough bore and light enough. **definitely** it would become applicable for awes. [/quote] [quote="Freeflying, post:233, topic:1610"] **safe bet for sure.** [/quote] Please stop bullshitting. You don't know. And we can see from a mile away that you don't know. This forum tries to be about applied science and trying new things. No one knows the answers. It helps if you have experience and are educated in related fields, which you are neither -- although to be fair many of us are also not. Anyone trying new things needs to accept that there are many things they don't know and will get many things wrong. You progress by trying to learn new things and trying things and failing and trying again. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-09 16:26:20 UTC | #237 [quote="PierreB, post:232, topic:1610"] Hi Doug, how do you explain that none of the wind companies granted interest for AWE? It’s not just a matter of terminology. These companies quickly understood that there was no meaningful future for AWE. [/quote] Yes it is interesting that, as far as I know, for the whole 14 years of AWE, I do not know of any other "player" besides me with actual experience in wind energy. That should be a BIG CLUE. Just like the thousands of piano-with-no-legs people with not a single one who knows how to play piano or even read music at all. I don't think the existing wind companies are set against AWE to the point of saying there is no future to it. I think it is more that they are very busy providing 10% of our electricity (and growing) as it is, and meanwhile, if an AWE system came a long that was compelling, they would embrace it, but right now they are just busy implementing today's technology. I am not aware of a single wind energy person involved with any AWE project. (Maybe I'm forgetting about someone) Even the idea that any AWE effort ever contracted with an aerodynamicist with wind energy experience is just a "maybe" as far as I know. Of course, just because I don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist, but I cannot recall ever hearing of any real wind person involved with AWE. You know what's funny? The spell-check on this thing doesn't even understand the word "aerodynamicist". At least it understands "treble clef". ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-09 17:04:35 UTC | #238 My apologies if that’s the way I came off. It’s Noted. Wasn’t my intention to come off with a side serving of bs. Followed by a faceplant in the muck. I appreciate we are learners here. Without meaning to be insincere. If something seem logical to me. because it follows a pattern. so sure as hells sure. Seemed like a good idea. I’d say so. That is all. I speak as if Its a journey of discovery for all! myself included. If I know something I will put it plainly. For all to see. Didn’t think I was talking bs. just simple mechanics, And manufacturing methods. Or was I mistaken? So thank you for letting me know. That I poked a bear and somehow completely missed the point. If seam achievable, the materials to my knowledge are accessible. I will mention it or reference. If I need to be more precise? I will make an effort. Hopefully I will be able to show something for it.. ------------------------- PierreB | 2022-03-10 08:44:09 UTC | #239 One of these "idiots", as you say, produced an average of 92 kW, far ahead of many other players. That doesn't make it a viable device, though. In a classic Research-gate energy forum, I don't even dare to talk about AWE. ------------------------- Windy_Skies | 2022-03-09 19:31:15 UTC | #240 You made some claims (definitely, sure thing, etc). You would need to support them. Here are two videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vArfwlX04I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KKsLuRPsvU ------------------------- tallakt | 2022-03-09 19:58:13 UTC | #241 [quote="dougselsam, post:237, topic:1610"] I am not aware of a single wind energy person involved with any AWE project. (Maybe I’m forgetting about someone) Even the idea that any AWE [/quote] Then why did Vestas send a large group to the AWE conference? What you say is not true. Only if the people working in wind companies are also idiots. I can attest these people exist. For example, Vestas made many patents AWE related. Who wrote these? I say again, its easy to predict failure in an emerging technology just because there will be many failures in AWE and maybe just a few successes. As happened in wind I would think, and in computing and anything new. Again I urge you to spend your time on developing your ideas rather than focusing on spotting who is going to fail. Its a bit interesting, but its the easiest thing to do. More interesting is spotting possible winners and even more hard, to predict what the winning tech may be ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-09 20:14:33 UTC | #242 [quote="tallakt, post:241, topic:1610"] What you say is not true. Only if the people working in wind companies are also idiots. I can attest these people exist. For example, Vestas made many patents AWE related. Who wrote these? [/quote] OK then, show us a working Vestas airborne wind energy system. Show us where Vestas promised to power X hundred homes using AWE in Location Y by date Z. Filing a patent is not the same as being involved in an actual AWE project. And what I said IS exactly true: that **I'm not aware of** any wind energy person involved in any AWE project. I didn't say they don't exist. But maybe they don't. Out of thousands of kids in the group selfies, maybe there is a wind energy person somewhere. I just don't happen to know about them. Certainly it would be more the exception than the rule. If wind energy people were involved, they wouldn't be reversing the most basic definition in wind energy: lift machines versus drag machines. ------------------------- PierreB | 2022-03-09 20:34:07 UTC | #243 What took away a lot of credibility from AWE was not Makani's failure per se, but the fact that the entire official AWE community was supporting this project without seeing the prohibitive factors that other projects also share. The criticisms came from [Mike Barnard](https://forum.awesystems.info/t/barnards-predictions/256), rather than from within. What about the https://forum.awesystems.info/t/power-to-space-use-ratio/274, instead of the misleading measure by the kite area without taking account of the tether length? [quote="dougselsam, post:242, topic:1610"] OK then, show us a working Vestas airborne wind energy system. [/quote] Sure. ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-09 21:26:00 UTC | #244 In reference to previous comments. For example https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203445094472?hash=item2f5e45c848:g:hIYAAOSwqWtglZot When I was speaking about design. the basic principles are transferable. Demonstration of cost effective manufacturing. guerillia mechanics 101 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114364891447?hash=item1aa0adc137:g:bXIAAOSwjFVfPQI4 Simple coils wound at 1.2 mm wire 250 turns is fairly standard. That is usually in-line with know voltages amps. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780323358248000220 https://www.hempflax.com/en/applications/construction/felt/ Pva glue being a favourite fibre seal. It is used heavily use in reenactment shields to hold things together and make it more durable. It would stiffen the hemp fibres. also fire proof them much like starlite. Google that if you don’t believe me? https://e-magnetsuk.com magnets are pre rated. If this dip stick can figure that out. From a mental picture. It don’t take much to rig that to a kite softwing or hard wing verities. Id love to find a chart of projected voltage and amperage. Per coil. As I know it will be in that. But here one way to find out. http://sm0vpo.altervista.org/data/coils.htm You know the math that follows. I wouldn’t want to take that opportunity way to find out for yourself. Creative license be what it is. If access you can get the materials. then it fairly simple from then on to find out. That is a sure thing for a start. Definitely worth considering. As it doesn’t brake the bank to find out. I hopefully cleared that one up. Anymore questions don’t be afraid to ask? Maybe I can paint a picture if that helps? Maybe of a looping kite? With devices attached. Nice to know my vocabulary got me into trouble. Check my thinking. I reckon it is do able. And fairly cheaply. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-09 22:09:29 UTC | #245 [quote="tallakt, post:241, topic:1610"] Then why did Vestas send a large group to the AWE conference? [/quote] Just to make sure nobody but "idiots" were in attendance? OK I am kidding. ;) Wait, is this a joke, like "Why did the chicken cross the road"? (Still kidding.) I'm sure geographic proximity played a role, as well as simple curiosity and not wanting to miss out on any important developments in wind energy, **should they occur**. The issue is not whether the concept of AWE is interesting to techies - of course it is! But it also seems to attract people who think "Well this is weird, and so am I, and I don't really fit in anywhere else, so maybe this is for me." Nice they found a place, but that is not exactly a compelling resume. Then there are all the kids looking for a job, thinking the people who would hire them really understand their projects. The kids think "Well, kites are fun, windsurfing is fun, and I sure like having fun, and these people seem pretty confident we will solve global warming "by next year", so this job is for me." So you really can't blame the kids. But at some point, when you see how the Makani aircraft actually flew (not very well), someone there at a pretty high level was not doing their job very well. Also, it seemed like poor judgement to have put that much time, effort, and capital into such a large-scale single prototype, to where if it failed they just gave up. They could have built ten smaller ones for the same money. But even that is not the main point. The main point is this: From majoring in physics and engineering, I know there are ways to predict performance, on paper, that would amaze most people. And it doesn't even require computers - the Boeing fleet was designed mostly using slide rules while smoking cigarettes and pipes, before they even had decent calculators, let alone personal computers. The 737 Max crashes and scandal were because Boeing no longer felt capable of designing a new jetliner. Kind of amazing - the decline of western civilization? So from all the AWE hype, I figured Makani **should** know what they were doing. But when you saw their kite barely able to climb through the upward half of its circular path, the whole story fell apart. Some people have more money than brains I guess, right? I had flagged what I think was a main problem, with a fairly straightforward solution, but even then, not sure you could rescue the concept, even solving that issue. But anyway, the point I'm trying to make here is that in aeronautics, especially with the advantage of computers and a big budget, and the ability to run scale models to verify predicted performance, I do not see how the expected and required level of expertise could have been in place for that project. And yes, especially since we are all now so accustomed to Google having "all the answers", all day every day, for that company specifically to fail in such a disappointing way after all that hype, well... ------------------------- Rodread | 2022-03-10 08:43:32 UTC | #246 Oh great and wise Doug... Do the IEA or NREL count as having any expertise in wind? Probably not as you are not participating in advising them. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-10 17:43:00 UTC | #247 Yeah, a little wisdom goes along way. Roddy you are changing the subject. We're talking about the people involved in AWE projects to develop AWE systems. Of course eventually NREL etc. had to at least acknowledge the mere existence of AWE efforts, due to the profuse publicity. They **had** to take a look at it, if for no other reason than to be able to answer the question that many, including congress, were asking, which was whether AWE constituted anything significant to consider at this time or in the foreseeable future, from what they could determine. I'm sure they did not use the term "idiots" in their assessment, but I know that is what they were thinking. I'm well acquainted with quite a few of them, and I know how they think. **They think like knowledgeable wind people** (oh no!), and they are **used to debunking** the "Professor Crackpots" of the world. Usually it is another "drag" machine... Now just because NREL etc. don't jump on the hype bandwagon and start gleefully promoting it out of proportion doesn't rule out AWE progress. And knowing these NREL people as I do, they are **not** going to shut the door on the entire idea. They will always leave a window of hope open, since there is nothing about the idea of AWE that violates the rules of physics. But as far as I know, they are not working to develop any AWE technology per se. I don't think they have any AWE project or even a favorite technology. So I would say, don't be a wise-ass. It's like what the two guys running the previous forum liked to do, start a conversation then slowly try to shift the meanings of words or the topic itself to try to "win" whatever served as one more "crackpot" "argument" in their minds. I had quite a back-and-forth with Santos over some ladies running a project at GE wind to develop blades with a metal frame covered with fabric. If think it had some government funding. I was very skeptical, and of course Santos was always pushing cloth as a working surface, so he would try to leverage the project to bolster his "fabric working surface" position. Then, coincidentally, I happened to attend the AWEA Windpower convention in nearby Las Vegas that year, and there was GE with a display of the ladies' cloth-covered blade project. Coincidentally (what luck!) I met GE Wind's Director of International Research right then and there, and asked him about it. He did not take it the least bit seriously and dismissed it as a nothing-burger. Of course my directly conferring with their top research guy and relaying the information back meant nothing to Santos (allergic to facts), and did not even slow him down in his endless nonsense. More recently, we know Santos had finally gotten "in touch" with the NREL personnel charged with looking into the whole AWE subject, and I'm sure he found himself in the exact same position as talking to me, hearing all the same exact stuff he heard from me for so many years, and I think that is why we don't hear from those guys anymore. Santos was always very impressed by "authority figures", and I suspect the NREL people "shut him down". Like I kept saying about the "crackpots", eventually, they "quietly go away". **Ding Ding Ding - wait - new information alert:** I just now had a phone call from an old friend, an actual wind person, who developed and manufactured a real, well-known brand of small wind turbine, the Lakota. I let him live here on the ranch, rent free for a year, after he came back from China, because we wind people stick together. It is hard to believe these coincidences, but the first thing he asked me was whether I had ever heard of a company called Skysails. I said yes, explaining their two concepts of kite-reeling and ship-towing, including their bankruptcy, subsequent relaunch, and ensuing announcements about "a factory" and "first AWE system shipped", but how that was over a year ago and we haven't heard anything new since then. **NOW THE BIGGER COINCIDENCE:** He went on to tell me he had talked with a mutual friend of ours, a former wind engineer at NREL (female by the way), now independent, who told him that NREL had been **inundated** by "300 companies" pursuing "AWE", and that they were totally disgusted at how stupid they all were, and that half of the concepts were "drag machines". I interpret that to mean half were "kite-reeling" (which, of course, the unwashed "idiots" call "lift machines). Anyway, the word I got was that the NREL people were basically disgusted at having to field so many "crackpot" inquiries. So there you have it, once again, actual inside information from real wind people. The song remains the same. I hope that helps. ;) ------------------------- PierreB | 2022-03-10 18:29:59 UTC | #248 [quote="dougselsam, post:247, topic:1610"] Santos had finally gotten “in touch” with the NREL personnel charged with looking into the whole AWE subject [/quote] Indeed Dave Santos is one of the experts who produced the NREL report. ------------------------- PierreB | 2022-03-11 08:23:36 UTC | #249 [quote="dougselsam, post:247, topic:1610"] I interpret that to mean half were “kite-reeling” (which, of course, the unwashed “idiots” call "lift machines). [/quote] Hi Doug, Loyd's formula gives the same power for both flygen and kite-reeling. Flygen are slowed down by 1/3 due to the drag of the turbines aloft, Betz limit being 16/27 as for any wind turbine. Kite-reeling are slowed down also by 1/3 due to the swept area going downwind at 1/3 wind speed, Betz limit being only 4/27 as for drag turbines like Savonius. But even the value of 4/27 is far from being reached during crosswind operations, because in both cases the kite travels unnecessarily (except for flight considerations) very large trajectories. And also: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6907723958083309568/ The finalization of a test campaign for a future project. Sounds like the promise of a promise... ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-16 05:19:30 UTC | #250 How many blades? Well ……… https://youtu.be/vHqdz6ZdjH8 Though this interesting enough to share. Turgo turbines do a pretty good job. He say 10-28 blade for a multi bladed turbine. 30-40% efficient though I bet with a few tweaks that could be higher 60% or above. If it could be like https://youtu.be/7w9rxf6UutA But airborne. I been trying to imagine what a involute would look like for such a system. If anyone would like to chime in? I’d welcome the input. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-16 20:27:47 UTC | #251 [quote="Freeflying, post:250, topic:1610"] How many blades? Well ……… [/quote] OK, back to **windergarten** 14 years of AWE hype, enough time to go to undergrad college, get a masters degree, and then get a PhD in wind energy (if there is such a thing) - TWICE, and yet we're **still** explaining basic things like what type of wind turbine is good for what use, on this "most advanced in the world" wind energy discussion. This guy in the first video DOES NOT REALLY KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT. You can forget most of what he said. 1) The reason so many blades are used to create a high-solidity rotor is because of the use. Height has pretty-much nothing to do with it. So the guy's main theme is wrong. The use is pumping enough water to keep cattle from dying of thirst. Therefore, consistent pumping is the priority. Efficiency is not the main driver. The ability to pump water from deep underground, even if only light winds occur for long periods, is the design driver. Running such a pump requires torque, not speed. The high solidity of the rotor, combined with the steep pitch of the blades, make the turbine able to run such a low-speed reciprocating pump even in light winds. These turbines can never be expected to reach even half of the efficiency of a regular wind turbine. But they are not expected to. They are expected to keep cattle from dying of thirst. They need to pump no matter what the weather, so they are made to work in light winds. 2) Modern water-pumping wind energy systems often DO use regular modern wind turbines to drive an ELECTRIC PUMP. Yes wind turbines produce better in the higher, smoother winds at higher heights, but plenty of small turbines operate quite satisfactorily at much lower heights than most people would imagine. I've had SuperTwins with 2 blades per rotor producing great consistent power at a 14-foot height for years. Right now we have a Firefly with dual 2-blade rotors running at about an 8-foot height - works fine. AND out of several attempts to use farm windmills for generating electricity, I'm not aware of any in use today. They usually use a fan belt to achieve ratio gearing to run a generator and the whole thing is inefficient and problematic regarding the fan belt. Why require 22 blades and gearing when you could use 2 or 3 blades to directly-drive a generator. 3) NO wind turbine works well in a "built environment". Why? Well, I hate to bring it up again, but (ready for this one?) Wind energy requires **wind**! I know, it sounds crazy, but it is true. And if your wind turbine will be blocked by all the houses around you, trees, buildings, hills, barns, billboards, etc. Wind energy requires being placed in a consistently-strong wind resource, ideally smooth wind undisturbed by any obstacles. So you need either a tower tall enough to get at least 30 feet above obstacles, or a lot of open space upwind for a low-height installation. The "30 feet" is a standard rule of thumb for small turbines, since turbulence of any kind is bad for your turbine and bad for performance. OK kids, windergarten is over for the moment. Time to go have your milk and cookies and take a nap. :) In short, it really helps anyone with a desire to pursue wind energy in any capacity to learn the basics before trying to improve upon what already is. Most, like this guy in the video, come in knowing nothing, and assuming nobody else knows anything either, so they can "explain" everything THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND, thinking the whole time they are "educating" the unwashed masses. But of course they miss the point that it is **they themselves who ARE the know-nothing unwashed masses.** I will not bother telling this crowd exactly WHY the farm windmill rotor is less efficient. Learn something about the art of wind energy and you might figure it out. But I doubt it. We have to save SOME knowledge for people who are willing to get up to speed on the simple kindergarten basics of wind energy on their own. We can't just tell all the know-nothing idiots everything - that would be spoiling an important national resource: people who know nothing! Oh well, there is always college. Or read a pamphlet or two on wind energy... Oh, and as for using high-solidity, steep-pitch water-type rotors for wind energy, no, they can't work anywhere near as efficiently for an open flow (wind) turbine - the air will just go around the whole thing, and what does go thru will generate with lower efficiency, and I'm not going to explain it all cuz this is supposed to be a place where advanced ideas are discussed. Kindergarten should have been over 14 years ago. This situation of wind know-nothings somehow thinking they have any idea what they are talking about, just throwing out whatever occurs to them with zero knowledge of the art, never changes. Never has, never will I'm sure. Have fun, that's the most important thing! Oh, and whatever you do, make sure you never learn anything about wind energy! That would spoil all your fantasies! ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-17 07:34:31 UTC | #252 I’m not asking anyone to explain efficiency, if a farm style turbine. If I was In a more humoured mood windergarten could mean many things. Win the garden, win derg atum, more invoking of divine powers/ divine inspiration? All this boils down to is a gas that flows around an object and creates power. Wasn’t it viktor schauberger studies in to fluid dynamics that advance the field? I seem to recall some saying standing in the shoulders of giant. As I don’t often have the time of mind to reinvent the wheel. Its worth considering and enquiring down all avenues. I’m obviously to stupid to comprehend by your standards.or even comprehend why you sometimes disparage engineering as a whole? must mean I’m on to a winner somewhere? With keep it simple stupid. Remember me and the mother of all other monkeys. will end up being the one that have builds it some day. I don’t thing that they will want to if it to hard to understand or access. FYI my Buisness design meeting went well last night. So I will have something to show for the efforts. It not size that matters it how you use it! Put the post up as a curiosity. I don’t think I’ve seen you back up your sources? I wasn’t around 14 years ago. To know how it all went down! We have established we are all at various different stages understanding. So what if I’m a beginner? eating fish dinners. The point here is I’m having a go. For more of a see for myself. It would be more beneficial for me to know the technicals. than a surman from the great Doug himself. You know they guy at the end of the pews. thats me! I fell a sleep long while ago. I got bored. Mind you, I was very hopeful the good lord would provide. So Milk and cookies would be nice 😊 if your offering, how do you serve it? I’m fresh out of biscuits. What milks on offer? I’m sure this will cause a few laughs! But hey oh there we go…….. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-17 13:20:27 UTC | #253 [quote="Freeflying, post:252, topic:1610"] FYI my Buisness design meeting went well [/quote] Might help to learn to spell "business"... You seem to always put the "i" in the wrong place. When I first started responding to this post I mistook the symbol for Roddy. But then I started noticing, Roddy wouldn't be saying this stuff Then I realized who it was. Oh course. Anyway I was not responding to you personally, per se. I was responding to what was written, regardless of who posted it. What you came up with is just the same typical know-it-all/know-nothinhg wind-kindergarten crap that people like me and Paul Gipe have been debunking for the 14 years of AWE hype, and also many years before that. None of this stuff is new. It's just new to you. It's ancient to us. :) ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-22 16:08:14 UTC | #254 ![image|248x500](upload://kum98cpa6fhGISLul6LGjoTKyuo.jpeg) A few more blades and we have the main rotor printed, got to love mate who can help. Nearly off the printer. Let the fun being! ------------------------- Rodread | 2022-03-22 20:06:19 UTC | #255 Nice bit of printing ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-22 20:49:49 UTC | #256 Thank you very much🙏 16blades of loveliness. It might have the main rotor was taken 14hrs the audition extra for holding magnets perhaps another 4hr. .2mm layer hight Look like we are going to have a unit coming under £50. if I’m incredibly lucky not much more than £20. well worth the money. as I can use it in multiple projects. Got a few more bit to add but we’re off to a flying start. Sometime asking the odd friend comes in really handy. What really great about the design it could work on variable density fluids. Though I don’t think it would withstand a custard assault. Being non Newtonian. It been made like Lego for easy of construction and print. It a good testing platform. Can’t wait to have fun with it. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-22 20:51:13 UTC | #257 I saw the picture and immediately knew who it was... ;) ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-23 07:32:56 UTC | #258 ![image|375x500](upload://c5k47X0hwPtjoj7p210zoSaz9BC.jpeg) Finnished print. With the printer that did it. Pac man eat you heart out! It brakes down into constituent parts. So is fully adaptable. Brakes Down to end cap blade holders and 16blades. Going to be munching them ghosts in the Misty mornings. ------------------------- PierreB | 2022-03-23 15:30:02 UTC | #259 [quote="dougselsam, post:257, topic:1610, full:true"] I saw the picture and immediately knew who it was… :wink: [/quote] You yourself wrote: the more rotors, the more power. So why not: the more blades, the more power? :upside_down_face: ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-23 16:39:24 UTC | #260 There a few articles on google scholar about mutibladed turbines. https://youtu.be/Ut-2w2aNwIU Can’t say how well it work? on the larger scale. but if what he’s built is anything to go by? Anyone feel those wind of change? Larger scale sintering process and additive manufacturing is showing real promise. If anyone can get something airborne its you guys. Be it Finials, shuttlecocks or a variety of fancy creations. Having seen the kind of thing you get up to thought it worthy note to add. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-23 20:08:02 UTC | #261 [quote="PierreB, post:259, topic:1610"] You yourself wrote: the more rotors, the more power. So why not: the more blades, the more power? :upside_down_face: [/quote] The more idiots and the more group-selfies, the more "hundreds of homes" powered by AWE systems "next year". BTW, the guy in the video is off on a tangent. He doesn't really "get it". ------------------------- Rodread | 2022-03-23 21:25:29 UTC | #262 He must be bad He called his turbine Daisy 🌼 Classic warning ⚠ sign Red flag 🚩 https://youtu.be/Ctr5A67LBGA ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-24 06:56:40 UTC | #263 Got to admit if you were in a pinch, realised your had the tools and materials. You would be able to get something. Fairly sure calling it a daisy turbine, is just what it looks like to him. For a back yard bodge , and £50 at your disposal. I think it an excellent in ya face. Opt to carge your mobile phone. Sure the 🚩 flags are there for the guys peeking around the corner. Thinking eh oh what’s he up too? Frankly it is a minefield for the unknowing. His is just a Turn of phrase speaks, and what come to mind. Not quite the pipe and slipper engineer. There is Liberal use, of the fair use clause. Stone sour, through the glass. comes to mind here. We’re all look through that glass. Like peering through a shop window. Remind me of a story I got told at when I camped at Corfe castle. once a kid witness a roast sucking pig we had at show. and ended up calling it an elephant. Potato patato thing. Honestly quite amusing. 🤣🤣🤣 ------------------------- PierreB | 2022-03-24 09:39:07 UTC | #264 It's called harvesting wind energy by the teaspoon. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-24 14:51:11 UTC | #265 Very clever Pierre! On the one hand, I'll give the guy points for an interesting use of a cheap pack of plastic spoons. On the other hand, such a rotor would be more attuned to a directed-flow water (hydro) turbine than an open-flow wind turbine. Reminds me of a sideways version of a pelton wheel, which work best in high-head directed flow hydroelectric turbine applications. Probably a switch to stainless steel spoons would be in order. In windergarten we learn directed flow wind turbines constitute a poor use of material and so have never caught on. Oh well, people who skip class in windergarten often produce such complete windsanity. But hey, all you need are some leftover plastic spoons! Just keep it in the dark, so the UV from sunlight doesn't turn them to dust. ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-24 16:15:24 UTC | #266 https://youtu.be/Ezpk_AbVwzQ He already made one and mentioned it was a sod to balance. He been doing a series of thing since things. ever since the Covid outbrake. He was just showing people how cheaply and easy it could be done. The polycarbonate only needs electrostatic plating and your all good for a few years. It is common practice to plate plastic with a thin layer of metal. I had a torch once I thought was metal. but it had been plated. Would be great for batch production. He also been looking at triboelectric TENG. Combining them and you have a good optimisation. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/triboelectric-nanogenerators The good thing about the TENG is power output increases with surface area. Simple as conductive ink and clear coat. I have been wanting to run the idea by you and the others on awes. Seeing the size of the kites and fix wings thought it might come in handy. ------------------------- Windy_Skies | 2022-03-24 16:19:10 UTC | #267 [quote="Freeflying, post:266, topic:1610"] The polycarbonate only needs electrostatic plating and your all good for a few years. [/quote] I wonder how that is done, how thick the plating is, and how durable it is. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-24 16:25:34 UTC | #268 [quote="Windy_Skies, post:267, topic:1610"] I wonder how that is done, how thick the plating is, and how durable it is [/quote] You can buy them already "plated" to look like metal. High-class plastic "silver"ware... :) ------------------------- Windy_Skies | 2022-03-24 16:43:21 UTC | #269 Not an answer to the question. And my mild interest is of course also not in spoons but in plating parts I make myself. ### How to Electroplate 3D Prints … (the shiny way) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m1kYK_U66I ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-24 17:34:32 UTC | #270 Heavy ion deposition or pulsed lazer deposition is a method widely use. From what I remember thickness is related to the amount of time it’s been place in the ion chamber. The parts are then give a static charge before a high voltage arc or lasers. are use to evaporate the metal to plate the parts. It heavily use in aerospace industry. Often it’s used on mass to plate 1000s of parts in an instant. I’ve heard 0.4mm being bounded about. The torch I had sat in my pocket solidly for 5 years. about 3 of them it resisted the daily abuse. Before showing signs of ware. For an active chap like myself that was impressive.I had no idea it even was plated till the plastic started to show through. Never had a go myself nor would I know how much it cost but it’s is a very neat process. See for example https://youtu.be/JL8qvTW-WCg ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-24 19:22:03 UTC | #271 And now, back to our regularly-scheduled show... :) ------------------------- Rodread | 2022-03-25 09:08:32 UTC | #272 [quote="dougselsam, post:265, topic:1610"] windsanity [/quote] The website windsanity.com is still available I am soooo tempted ------------------------- tallakt | 2022-03-25 15:52:47 UTC | #273 Ill go for windergarden.io then ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-25 20:28:13 UTC | #274 Speaking of spoons, somehow Youtube just spoon-fed me this: Harmony Turbines https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tsaFPd03w4 Hmmm, somebody didn't go to Windergarden! (Especially the investors! - ouch!) Doesn't exactly make power yet - well they've only been "working on it" for 4 years. Typical - vertical-axis people often wait years before someone forces them to attach a generator - they hate that step. They are happiest in the "Look, it spins!" phase. But they raised a couple hundred thousand bucks, and now have a shop with machine tools, and have apparently hired a few people. They show a unit being truck-tested - wow, sure spins slow for how fast the truck is going! How fortunate they had a 3-D printer or they might never have gotten started! The miracle of 3-D printing! How can they possibly fail? Thank God for them or the Earth might fry. I will stop here and let you guys debunk it! To begin: This machine is 1) a lift machine 2) a drag machine :) ------------------------- PierreB | 2022-03-25 21:02:10 UTC | #275 [quote="dougselsam, post:274, topic:1610"] * a lift machine * a drag machine [/quote] Like [Magenn](https://forum.awesystems.info/t/magenn/637), a rotary AWES based on drag like Savonius type, but with the difference that the turbine placed on a horizontal axis also generates lift by Magnus effect, which allows it to float in the air, also taking into account the additional lift by helium inflation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6vgWP5U5Ew ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-25 21:23:31 UTC | #276 Cool Video, Pierre! Wow, looks like they'll be shipping their 4 kW product in 2007. I'm excited. For newbies or people not yet born back then, Magenn was the original "poster-child" for AWE, appearing on endless magazine covers and websites. Even NASA was using Magenn images to promote... something. Of course, I was there protesting that it was just "idiots, idiots, idiots", but who listens to me? ------------------------- tallakt | 2022-03-26 06:54:38 UTC | #277 A true work of art! It does however show how one may go about executing and funding a development phase of a wind turbine ------------------------- Rodread | 2022-03-26 08:48:03 UTC | #278 [quote="dougselsam, post:274, topic:1610"] truck-test [/quote] Oh no that's another massive red flag... Who would do a truck test @dougselsam ? ------------------------- Windy_Skies | 2022-03-26 09:07:00 UTC | #279 An impractical launching method. ### Hail Cannon Obama Ball, Launch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr39f5t_Mdc ## Smoke Ring Propulsion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJoUSHJcV4E ------------------------- Rodread | 2022-03-26 09:13:45 UTC | #280 The bodgineering on this guys daisy turbine is going well https://youtu.be/pkqEN2-Avgs it keeps the same output 10v over a wide range of alignment to the wind. So the speed is constant. In other words - the blades can't run as fast as they want to because of high solidity. Who knows That property of reliable speed across a range of alignments might well suit an AWES. More likely an auxiliary power supply on a system where a tangential alignment is not optimal. ------------------------- tallakt | 2022-03-26 09:45:31 UTC | #281 O the joy of a future where electricity is provided by a huge multiple of plastic teaspoons in my garden. The future can’t come soon enough Anyone have a lifecycle analysis of these units? He does seem serious though. I dont see why, when you could have proper renewable energy delivered at all outlets in your house, at a really affordable price… ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-26 11:10:11 UTC | #282 @PierreB @tallakt @tallakt @Windy_Skies @Rodread @dougselsam Do I see a design war kicking off? If so? https://www.drinkstuff.com/products/product.asp?ID=19739 Considering steam bending a is thing. Hazel or willow are good resources. https://youtu.be/yd7ej5zVeLE So if you do have a windy garden. This might also do the trick. ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-26 12:37:25 UTC | #283 Also https://youtu.be/fLXyD3haLRM ------------------------- PierreB | 2022-03-26 16:28:56 UTC | #284 Is this a contest to find the most inefficient wind turbines possible? ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-26 16:44:58 UTC | #285 I’m not sure. I think the gist was the quickest and easiest to build. With reliable results. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-27 00:18:43 UTC | #286 Well raising money is a "be careful what you wish for" thing. Soon they find themselves unable to make payments. The debt piles up. The investors start getting nervous. Then they demand a bankruptcy so at least they come out with something. They end up with the worthless IP. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-27 00:41:51 UTC | #287 [quote="Rodread, post:278, topic:1610"] Who would do a truck test [/quote] That's the only thing they did right. And from what I saw, it didn't spin very fast. If they were paying any attention, they would realize their truck testing is showing them the design will not work out. So the testing is a success, but they are ignoring the resulting data. They just want to keep bilking investors. They could build an equivalent regular turbine for next to nothing. It would be much smaller and require almost no material in comparison. But reality is not how these people operate. They are like on an acid trip. What I think they should do is offer a version without their main invention, the overspeed control, since it seems to be what is holding things from going forward. ("Hey Professor Crackpot, great invention , except for its main feature!") But they probably couldn't even pull that off. I'm not aware of the need for overspeed protection for a Savonius, never seen it, and I think there would be a passive way to accomplish the same result, rather than the way they do it. Or look up how previous Savonius machines handled high winds. Maybe just cut off the power if the voltage gets too high and let it spin - it won't go any faster than the wind anyway. You can see in the truck testing how slow the rotor is going, even though the truck is moving right along. The whole thing is silly, pursuing a mostly-disproven idea and adding a deal-killer unnecessary cumbersome automated electric feature as though it is a breakthrough. They are bring the typical "wheelbarrow to the Formula-one race" except their wheelbarrow has a really expensive way to slow it down, and they think maybe they can get it all working within ten years... ten years? OMG, well the "Professor Crackpots" of the world are just a never-ending feature of the landscape. ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-27 06:21:33 UTC | #288 https://youtu.be/2Hjl_5cXoCo Hyperbolic cones. Double output. Viktor schauberger inspired. ------------------------- Rodread | 2022-03-27 09:31:48 UTC | #289 Double the output from only 5x the material use Oh ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-27 10:46:19 UTC | #290 Yep, its an interesting result. Because of https://youtu.be/HuIxSkD6wsA There is a paper out there saying you can get 30% more out than what went in. https://youtu.be/kOnoYQchHFw Im not sure how this can be applied in a practical sense. But it is an interesting result non the less. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-28 17:53:08 UTC | #291 [quote="Freeflying, post:288, topic:1610"] Double output. [/quote] The wannabe professor crackpots always show "voltage" as though it is power or "output". (Wheee! Look at our Voltage!!!") Any little device can produce an idle potential of thousands of volts, even if it can generate almost zero power, depending on how many turns of really thin wire they use. Voltage in itself means absolutely nothing. This guy in the video is the blind leading the deaf, the helpless inspiring the hopeless. ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-28 18:23:25 UTC | #292 This is true. Turns of wire and diameter do influence voltage. Just thought it impressive that was a pc fan that did it. Which can be anything from 50 turns to 250 turns. Per coil. As not all fans are made equal. The specs are on a previous vid where he converted the pc fans. I’m going to say it you bog standard fan from a pc before 2018.as there’s plenty on eBay. The point he’s making is some power. is better than no power at all! Just 50% increase is something that not to be sniffed at. One to keep the eyes open for. He knows something which is better than nothing. Different walk, different talk. But hey oh. Bare in mind he converted the fan for power generation. he was doing to show hobbyist how to do the same. He’s making to with the scrap pile. With the bare minimum of tools. Blind he maybe? But with each day of enquiries it get a little less dark. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-28 21:59:16 UTC | #293 OK so I just watched the video (at 1.5x speed so I could stand to sit there for 2 minutes of nothingness) Professor Crackpot doesn't seem to realize that wind is normally approximated as an incompressible flow, just like water. And in Windergarden, we learn the unsurprising fact that while a funnel can increase output, it pushes the rotor to a high-than-ideal Mach number, which increases noise and lowers efficiency, pushing the designers to increase blade pitch and rotor solidity, which further lowers efficiency. And as Roddy pointed out, the funnel uses too much material compared to how much power it adds. Anyway, nothing new in adding a funnel to the front, back, or both. Picture a 600-foot diameter turbine with an added funnel a quarter-mile wide that must be built to withstand 120 mph winds. What material are you going to use, reinforced concrete? What would it cost, a billion dollars? And of course "what would the neighbors think?" Blotting out the sun with concrete? Decommissioning cost? CO2 emissions? One turbine costing more than an entire windfarm? This guy is not showing anything new, other than he is "discovering" what people with the slightest familiarity with wind energy already knew long ago. ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-29 08:10:12 UTC | #294 A keep pointing made about realities scaling. I understand that too high a Mach number. will act like a pressure cutter on steel. It is why? You see the ablative damage on the blades of many wind farms. Which can lead to structural failure. He considering small scale rather than larger scales. I’ve been fortunate enough for the information to cross my path. When the original wind farm where made. It was noted how much attention was paid dust and other abrasives in the atmosphere. Many argue, that they should have seen that one coming. Considering most of the cutting technology out there. On the other point made. I agree it would be impractical if made solely from concrete. What I had in mind was more like tent like structure. Much like your pop up tents. It a shame a lot of the old mill chimney are now demolished in the industrial heartlands. as they would make for fantastic bases for a turbine like this. On the small scale you could use cob construction up to 20m on a parabolic arch. Which make the decommissioning a that bit easier. High pressure water cannons can be employed to wash it away. Cob is a good material and can last for centuries. Local to me, we have a cob barn that stood on the site since the 1600s. Even up where you are you have rammed earth structures. That are far older than anything we have in Britain. Curtesy of the original natives inhabitants. What I think his target ranges for scale would be about 30m. Maximum or 100ft across. I doubt it would be wise going any bigger. Structure loading from the wind sheer alone is enough to cause terminal damage. On the point what will the local think? depending how you sell it too them? You might get away calling a kinetic sculpture? oooh look at the pretty petals. Even invite them in to paint all kinds of pretty colours. Helps if the feel like they have some ownership. It Schauberger inspired. Was his main reason for trying. It alway fun to see someone discover for themselves. Sure it been around a while. It has seen some use in various different place. I doubt your average joe knows or even cares to know. Definitely would be grand to see it in more regular use. Though I agree a balance must be struck if this was going to have any meaning full impact. I believe he’s looking at it for his wind wall. Because of the expanded surface area in play. We are yet to see? ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-03-29 13:08:31 UTC | #295 Well I have a building here that greatly enhances the wind flow in certain locations. And I'm all for enhancing the flow wherever it could be advantageous. So far nobody has succeeded with funnels, and a lot of highly-funded attempts have gone absolutely nowhere. But people will always keep talking about it. The thing about the idle musings on the internet is it's mostly people who have not experienced what it takes to keep even the simplest, most ruggedly-built wind energy system operating. The wind will rip shit apart beyond your wildest expectations. Meanwhile you will always have people with no experience playing with computer fans - so what? Talk is cheap. Anyone can sit around typing on the internet about stuff they don't really have any knowledge or experience in. Sure, build a rammed earth structure and wash it off with high pressure water cannons - what could possibly go wrong? Or start an insane asylum where people running around with butterfly nets can paint pretty flowers on wind sculptures and get everyone to pretend it is creating power. Create an economically-compelling energy solution and the world will beat a path to your door. On the other hand, when a strong wind hits and it all folds up and ends up ripped apart hanging in a tree a mile away, you might start to learn. Or lay off all the people in your group selfies and go bankrupt like so many, or more likely just keep sitting there typing like the rest. ------------------------- Rodread | 2022-03-29 20:41:49 UTC | #296 The guy with the spoons turbine should not have called it Daisy ![Screenshot_2022-03-29-21-39-13-401_com.twitter.android|225x500](upload://hRzUSiFPiNHenL6Q7hzGpa7sN7f.jpeg) ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-29 21:18:30 UTC | #297 Nice! Much better idea looks the part as well. ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-03-30 16:09:43 UTC | #298 To all whom might be interested? @Windy_Skies @Rodread @PierreB @dougselsam @tallakt @tallakt https://youtu.be/LcVBH-CpwKs Go turbine test rig. Including meccano parts. As the stand. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-04-03 14:16:46 UTC | #299 [quote="Rodread, post:185, topic:111"] Here’s a good list of their recommendations for aerodynamics software [/quote] Interesting that, with all of today's tools, Boeing decided they could not design a new jetliner, and instead determined the best they could do was create flawed band-aid software to adjust the flying characteristics of a modified version of a design created by talented guys with pencils and slide rules 60 years ago. :O... ------------------------- tallakt | 2022-04-03 14:16:46 UTC | #300 Is it a stretch to say that CFD has had a huge inpact on eg. cars, windmills, ships, sails, AWE, etc etc. The amount of data you get almost for free is astonishing. Wrt Boeing, its a matter of; static environments don’t attract the best talent. Boeing is geared towards safely producing almost the same product over and over. The people who do this are not the creative in depth knowledge people. You can read about innovation in large companies many places. Its known to be difficult. ------------------------- dougselsam | 2022-04-03 20:51:15 UTC | #301 [quote="tallakt, post:300, topic:1610"] The amount of data you get almost for free is astonishing. [/quote] Well the fact that there is no AWE progress, and Boeing can't design a new plane is also astonishing. With all that free data! The thing is, if you have a decent concept, you should be able to do a decent job of making a decent prototype with decent performance without having to do backflips on a computer. Don't forget the most powerful supercomputer is in our heads! ------------------------- Freeflying | 2022-04-11 15:28:09 UTC | #302 https://youtu.be/lBOB9SSdDfU As your always up for suggestions AWEs. Especially the YouTube verity. Today’s daily servings. -------------------------