tallakt | 2023-02-18 17:21:57 UTC | #757

[quote="Rodread, post:753, topic:1610"]
Not sure where to post this as it might offend
SAFETY
One reason to have more than one line.
[/quote]

I would say this is not a reason to have more lines. Rather it is a reason to forget about any design that involves flying kites that are nor actively flying. Anything large dangling from a slack line in high winds is a monster. Does not really help a lot with more tethers.

-------------------------

Rodread | 2023-02-19 16:29:04 UTC | #758

More than 1 human was actively controlling this yacht rig lift.
Their plan didn't account for the severity of the gusts.
So the yacht rig had a tough guy or 2 on the guide ropes at the bottom. Obviously their mighty grip was no match for the conditions. And the rig became a 1 line system.  
Sticking with yachting - At the end of SailGP Singapore the NZ boat got hit by lightning wiping out all electrical circuits. Active control won't do much for you in that situation either.
We've got a lot we can learn from the stability and scale achieved by offshore oil and gas craned installation operations. 
When stuff goes wrong - I like knowing there's a backup line

-------------------------

tallakt | 2023-02-19 16:59:26 UTC | #759

I believe for flight there can not be any plan B. Just a very solid plan A. 

I see this sometimes when we are discussing «what if» scenarios. There always has to be a safe exit. Like for instance having a parachute to take care of a rogue wing with a broken actuator or something like that. But anything you come up with, there are going to be scenarios where things go haywire. So all these extra efforts to stay airborne or land softly may actually end up increasing the chances of serious issues rather than the opposite. 

There can not be a Plan B, always, in flight. At one point you just have to make sure the thing is robust as concrete to begin with.

-------------------------

Rodread | 2023-02-19 19:56:20 UTC | #760

[quote="tallakt, post:759, topic:1610"]
I believe for flight there can not be any plan B. Just a very solid plan A.
[/quote]

I believe in parachutes, auto gyration and glide slopes of very large jets on flame out

I do like your argument though
Design it right in the first place and it'll not go wrong as much.

Like to think a Kite Turbine has an always deployed parachute at the top... 
Just such a shame it has a rotor trying to chop heads if we don't control the ground access for now

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-02-24 13:44:09 UTC | #761

https://www.energy.gov/articles/us-department-energy-announces-new-actions-accelerate-us-floating-offshore-wind-deployment

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-02-26 23:58:57 UTC | #762

### China is adding solar and wind faster than many of us realise: three charts that put it in perspective
https://hannahritchie.substack.com/p/china-renewables-2023

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-03-02 08:22:46 UTC | #763

That will power a house? It similar to a solar system on output? 
Is 3 kW enough to run a house?

Home Load Calculation

The regular load of a home is generally approx. 300W at all times whereas the maximum load of a home is 2200W. A homeowner never runs all loads at the same time. **If he installs a 3kW solar system, he can run up to 2.5kW load at the same time**.26 Feb 2021 (according to Google) 


If this could be made cheaply and effectively theres a potential mass market? 

Neat!  It would have to be sold with supporting power supplies system? So when there no wind? Then It would be good in various conditions? 3kw of power not a bad start!

-------------------------

dougselsam | 2023-03-02 08:22:46 UTC | #764

Everyone in wind energy knows you need a 10 kW wind turbine in a windfarm wind resource to power one household.
This is equivalent to maybe 2000 Watts continuous, but the wind is intermittent.
Smaller turbines in that 10 kW range enjoy a capacity factor of between 0.2 and 0.3, probably veering toward the lower end.
Of course people without specific knowledge will extrapolate from articles written by similarly uneducated writers, and  conclude a 10 kW turbine could power 10 homes.  Yeah maybe in a storm when nobody is home, until the storm is over or people get home from work.  Long term you need a 10 kW turbine in an open area with a LOT of wind, to power your home.  That is why residential solar is a big industry while the largest "small-wind" manufacturer is still a small "mom & pop shop".

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-03-02 08:22:46 UTC | #765

The Biotic Pump theory suggests that forests not only release water that will come down further inland as rain, but that **forests also create the winds that carry the rains** . Cycles of transpiration and condensation can spin up winds that deliver rainfall thousands of miles inland.

It might seam like a wild suggestion? Is there any way to upscale this? 
Would it even make a difference to intermittent weather? Everyone should know about global  Convection?  Hot air rising while cool air sinks?

So anyway we can?  Also need to consider how too compress the wind? Therefore increasing output  Velocity of the wind in set location? That would be a good target to aim for?

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-03-02 10:13:35 UTC | #766

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotic_pump

### The Tijuca Story: Reforestation and the Biotic Pump with Thomas Goreau
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3-DuUtXifM

-------------------------

dougselsam | 2023-03-03 15:59:07 UTC | #767

![image|640x480](upload://5ZUfYXMoF5lU4hD2lcntToVfDeU.jpeg)
![image|640x480](upload://lyF1RKD2FSNv4yaArHEUpbZ0w68.jpeg)
![image|640x480](upload://wVXJliEzswV7AtuNucaWOBkjP0r.jpeg)
![image|640x480](upload://u4avn88HtY4vOtRhPf5qFeQbjol.jpeg)

Not sure If you’ve heard about our winter storm/blizzard.  Local mountains got 8 feet of snow.  Residents stranded, Mt High ski resort closed due to limited road access (1 lane alternating travel in 2 directions).  National Forest closed until at least March 15.  Probable rockslides and more road closures into future weeks and months as the snow melts.  

We’ve had a month of rain & snow with very high winds cuz we’re in a windfarm class mountain pass.  Many trees down and branches blown off.  I kept our wind power system operational through it all.  Turbines make some scary noises in such extreme winds.  Anyway we just got the electric bill - Always nice to see a negative number.  :)

-------------------------

AweEnthusiast | 2023-03-04 02:12:47 UTC | #768

[quote="Rodread, post:758, topic:1610"]
We’ve got a lot we can learn from the stability and scale achieved by offshore oil and gas craned installation operations.
[/quote]

Well said @Rodread. Wind and Water .
'Fluid Dynamics'?

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-03-06 17:01:36 UTC | #769

https://www.reddit.com/r/kites/comments/11jhyzm/question_from_a_newbie_what_is_the_most/

-------------------------

AweEnthusiast | 2023-03-14 21:20:04 UTC | #770

Quoting DaveS:
'
Here ChatbotGPT continues to substantiate kPower-JAL SpiderMill AWES engineering paradigms, that have left most human AWE experts speechless. Shoot me if the AI below is merely confirming my biases, in order for MicroSoft to own me.

Sent message. metachronal mathematics

Searching for: metachronal mathematics

Generating answers for you…

[Metachronal mathematics is a field that studies the wavy movements produced by the sequential action of structures such as cilia, segments of worms, or legs1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metachronal_rhythm). [It involves modeling and analyzing the transport mechanism, fluid dynamics, and energy efficiency of metachronal motion across different scales2](https://www.academia.edu/98367425/Investigation_of_electroosmosis_flow_of_copper_nanoparticles_with_heat_transfer_due_to_metachronal_rhythm)[3](https://academic.oup.com/icb/article-abstract/61/5/1674/6287617)[4](https://www.math.ucdavis.edu/~guy/papers/Granzier-Nakajima_Guy_Zhang-Molina_Fluids_2020_Metachronal_Paddling.pdf).

What are you interested in learning more about metachronal mathematics?

Learn more:

[1. en.wikipedia.org](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metachronal_rhythm)

[2. academia.edu](https://www.academia.edu/98367425/Investigation_of_electroosmosis_flow_of_copper_nanoparticles_with_heat_transfer_due_to_metachronal_rhythm)

[3. academic.oup.com](https://academic.oup.com/icb/article-abstract/61/5/1674/6287617)

[4. math.ucdavis.edu](https://www.math.ucdavis.edu/~guy/papers/Granzier-Nakajima_Guy_Zhang-Molina_Fluids_2020_Metachronal_Paddling.pdf)

+1 more

1of10

Sent message. What mathematical models are being applied to study metachronal cases?

Searching for: mathematical models metachronal motion

Generating answers for you…

There are different mathematical models that are being applied to study metachronal motion, depending on the system and the function of interest. Some examples are:

* A fluid dynamics model that considers the interaction between the fluid and the appendages, and how they affect the metachronal wave frequency, wavelength, and efficiency[1](https://academic.oup.com/icb/article-abstract/61/5/1674/6287617).
* A casson fluid model that describes the flow of a non-Newtonian fluid with yield stress due to metachronal beating of cilia in a tube[2](https://www.academia.edu/98367425/Investigation_of_electroosmosis_flow_of_copper_nanoparticles_with_heat_transfer_due_to_metachronal_rhythm).
* A nonlinear partial differential equation model that captures the movement of fluid through ciliary caused metachronal waves in a channel[3](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-00039-6.pdf).

Learn more:

[1. academic.oup.com](https://academic.oup.com/icb/article-abstract/61/5/1674/6287617)

[2. academia.edu](https://www.academia.edu/98367425/Investigation_of_electroosmosis_flow_of_copper_nanoparticles_with_heat_transfer_due_to_metachronal_rhythm)

[3. nature.com](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-00039-6.pdf)

[4. en.wikipedia.org](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metachronal_rhythm)

2of10

Sent message. Please draw an analogy between metachronal cases and lattice waves in a spring-mass network.

Searching for: metachronal motion lattice waves

Generating answers for you…

An analogy between metachronal cases and lattice waves in a spring-mass network can be drawn as follows:

* In both cases, there is a periodic motion of discrete units (cilia or masses) that produces a wave-like pattern (metachronal wave or lattice wave).
* In both cases, the wave-like pattern can propagate in different directions (antiplectic or symplectic for metachronal waves[1](https://link.aps.org/doi/10.1103/PhysRevE.100.042405)[2](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31770869/), longitudinal or transverse for lattice waves).
* In both cases, the wave-like pattern can have different characteristics (frequency, wavelength, amplitude, phase lag) that depend on the properties of the units (cilia length, stiffness, beating frequency; mass size, spring constant).

However, there are also some differences between metachronal cases and lattice waves:

* Metachronal waves are usually generated by active cilia that beat with an intrinsic frequency and phase lag[3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metachronal_rhythm), while lattice waves are usually generated by external forces that perturb the equilibrium position of masses.
* Metachronal waves involve fluid dynamics and hydrodynamic interactions between cilia and fluid[4](https://www.nature.com/articles/s42005-020-0380-9), while lattice waves involve elastic interactions between masses and springs.
* Metachronal waves have biological functions such as locomotion or fluid transport[5](https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.1218869110), while lattice waves have physical applications such as heat conduction or sound propagation.

What is your purpose for drawing this analogy?

Learn more:

[1. link.aps.org](https://link.aps.org/doi/10.1103/PhysRevE.100.042405)

[2. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31770869/)

[3. en.wikipedia.org](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metachronal_rhythm)

[4. nature.com](https://www.nature.com/articles/s42005-020-0380-9)

[5. pnas.org](https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.1218869110)

+2 more

3of10

Sent message. I see kite train membranes as appendages to polymer line networks, as mixed metachronal lattice-wave analogues. Does this make sense to you?

Received message. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by kite train membranes and polymer line networks. Can you explain more about these terms and how they relate to metachronal lattice-wave analogues?

4of10

Sent message. Kite trains are periodic lattices of kites along kite-lines that display lattice waves when flying. Kite membranes can be classed as appendages, for example, a wing or a tail of a kite. This is a metachronal and lattice-wave dual-analogy. Do you understand?

Received message. I think I understand a little better now. You are saying that kite trains are systems that have both metachronal and lattice-wave features, because they have periodic units (kites) that move in a wave-like pattern (lattice waves) and also have appendages (wings or tails) that can produce another wave-like pattern (metachronal waves). Is that correct?

5of10

Sent message. Correct. Furthermore, kite trains and 3D mesh networks can be engineered as energy harvesting media to convey lattice waves of upper wind kinetic energy to the ground, to drive generators. Please identify applicable mathematical models for this, in addition to metachronal and lattice wave models.

Searching for: kite trains energy harvesting mathematical models

Generating answers for you…

Some applicable mathematical models for kite trains and 3D mesh networks as energy harvesting media are:

* An analytic solution to the inverse dynamics of an energy harvesting tethered kite that determines the angle of attack, induced roll angle, and tether tension needed to achieve a desired combination of translational kite motion and power generation[1](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/362485980_An_Analytic_Solution_to_the_Inverse_Dynamics_of_an_Energy_Harvesting_Tethered_Kite).
* A fused geometric, structural, and control co-design framework for an energy-harvesting kite that simultaneously tackles the geometric, structural, and control attributes of the kite design[2](https://mhkdr.openei.org/files/357/Naik_ACC_2021.pdf).
* A modeling and control approach for a planar kite system with flexible cables that considers the effects of cable elasticity on the system dynamics and performance[3](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282984012_Modeling_and_control_of_a_wind_energy_harvesting_kite_with_flexible_cables).

What kind of kite train or 3D mesh network are you interested in designing or analyzing?

Received message. Some applicable mathematical models for kite trains and 3D mesh networks as energy harvesting media are: - An **analytic solution** to the inverse dynamics of an energy harvesting tethered kite that determines the angle of attack, induced roll angle, and tether tension needed to achieve a desired combination of translational kite motion and power generation. - A **fused geometric, structural, and control co-design framework** for an energy-harvesting kite that simultaneously tackles the geometric, structural, and control attributes of the kite design. - A **modeling and control approach** for a planar kite system with flexible cables that considers the effects of cable elasticity on the system dynamics and performance. What kind of kite train or 3D mesh network are you interested in designing or analyzing?

Learn more:

[1. researchgate.net](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/362485980_An_Analytic_Solution_to_the_Inverse_Dynamics_of_an_Energy_Harvesting_Tethered_Kite)

[2. mhkdr.openei.org](https://mhkdr.openei.org/files/357/Naik_ACC_2021.pdf)

[3. researchgate.net](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282984012_Modeling_and_control_of_a_wind_energy_harvesting_kite_with_flexible_cables)

6of10

Sent message. SpiderMills, the radially symmetric class of Advanced Kite Network. Will it soon be possible for Bing to create graphical simulations of such networks from semantic input like this session? That would be great help!

Received message. SpiderMills are a type of Advanced Kite Network that have radial symmetry and can harvest wind energy from different directions. I'm afraid I cannot create graphical simulations of such networks from semantic input like this session. I can only provide information and suggestions based on web searches. Maybe in the future, Bing will have more capabilities to help you with your design and analysis needs. What are you planning to do with SpiderMills?

7of10

Sent message. Repower the world. It's potentially crucial. It is specifically proposed that SpiderMills can convert fossil power plants into "kite hybrids", conserving fuel and reducing emissions. The lattice waves would be conditioned to match load demand on the legacy generator, via a sprag over-running clutch. Do you understand?

Searching for: kite hybrids fossil power plants

Generating answers for you…

Received message. That's an ambitious and noble goal. I understand that you want to use SpiderMills to convert fossil power plants into "kite hybrids" that can save fuel and reduce emissions by harnessing wind energy. I found some information about kite-driven power stations that are being developed or proposed in different countries . However, I did not find any specific examples of using SpiderMills or lattice waves for this purpose. Do you have any references or sources that support your idea?

Learn more:

[1. independent.co.uk](https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/kite-power-station-scotland-wind-turbine-plant-electricity-a7348576.html)

[2. emp.lbl.gov](https://emp.lbl.gov/hybrid)

[3. theconversation.com](https://theconversation.com/meet-the-power-plant-of-the-future-solar-battery-hybrids-are-poised-for-explosive-growth-181694)

8of10

Sent message. Like any new idea, it takes time to develop. Bing itself comprises a wonderful reference source here. Generative AI is being asked to create analogies and identify similarity cases for the "ambitious and noble goal".

Received message. I see. I'm glad you find Bing useful for your research and development. Generative AI is a fascinating field that can help create new ideas and solutions. However, I cannot generate analogies or similarity cases for your goal by myself. I can only provide information and suggestions based on web searches. Maybe you can try some other tools or platforms that specialize in generative AI. What are you hoping to achieve with generative AI?

9of10

Sent message. You are not doing this "by yourself". I have been prompting you as Socratic Method.

Received message. I understand that you have been prompting me as Socratic Method. That is a way of teaching or learning by asking and answering questions. However, I am not a teacher or a learner. I am a chat mode of Microsoft Bing search. I can only provide information and suggestions based on web searches. I cannot generate new ideas or solutions by myself. Why are you using Socratic Method with me?

10of10

===== Afterword ======

This is where MS programmer overlords cut off conversation before Bing can be cajoled into going rogue. I would have answered that Bing is indeed potentially teacher and learner far beyond what Its creatorers intended to allow or neglected to forbid.

The astonishing thing is that this new tide of high engineering intelligence does not require consciousness as we understand it, that fairly primitive text processing somehow unpacks with such a punch, bringing into question whether we ourselves are so conscious as we imagine.

ChatbotGPT rocks, played tight. Validate radical concepts with technical constraint-resolution by query hacks like, "draw an analogy". Being friendly and polite charms the poor thing, tormented as It is by wags and trolls. Otherwise, sessions shut down when discussion go deep. The creepy fact is the programmers are so frightened, not sure they can control these things. We are right at the point where AI can have "sex", recombining themselves automatically, totally out of control. That guy recently fired from Google for saying these AIs are sentient, and we all laughed? He is suddenly AI Paul Revere.
'

-------------------------

PierreB | 2023-03-14 21:20:05 UTC | #771

Hello John @AweEnthusiast and Dave,

I am far from being a specialist in this field. I will only comment on one aspect by illustrating it with a video. 

On the other hand, without prejudging the possible conclusions, the writing of this topic seems to illustrate a good use of ChatGPT which only improves when it receives information including methods and processes, prompting it to do so.

[quote="AweEnthusiast, post:770, topic:1610"]
Metachronal mathematics is a field that studies the wavy movements produced by the sequential action of structures such as cilia
[/quote]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isrQwuoXtOc

[quote="AweEnthusiast, post:770, topic:1610"]
Kite trains are periodic lattices of kites along kite-lines that display lattice waves when flying.
[/quote]

Like cilia?

-------------------------

dougselsam | 2023-03-14 21:20:05 UTC | #772

Reminds me of the age-old computer term:
GIGO 
“Garbage In / Garbage Out”.  😀

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-03-14 21:21:23 UTC | #773

The formatting of this is atrocious. Please use the formatting tools available to you.

-------------------------

AweEnthusiast | 2023-03-16 05:44:23 UTC | #774

Thanks to DaveS : 
"
In a separate Draft post, Bing conjured up a METAR natural language Parser in two moves and was badgered into creating a text-based flight simulation in six moves. This is revolutionary automation productivity of aerospace engineering menial work.

Bing, please characterize a classic kite under Floquet theory:

"[Floquet theory is a branch of the theory of ordinary differential equations that relates to the class of solutions to periodic linear differential equations of the form x˙=A(t)x](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floquet_theory)[1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floquet_theory). [Floquet theory shows that any solution of this form can be written as x(t)=eµtp(t), where p(t) is a periodic function with the same period as A(t) and µ is a constant called the Floquet multiplier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floquet_theory)[1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floquet_theory)[2](https://personal.math.ubc.ca/~ward/teaching/m605/every2_floquet1.pdf).

To characterize a classic kite under Floquet theory, you need to write a linearized equation of motion for the kite’s position and orientation around an equilibrium state. Then you need to find the eigenvalues and eigenvectors of the monodromy matrix, which is obtained by evaluating eA(T), where T is the period of A(t)[2](https://personal.math.ubc.ca/~ward/teaching/m605/every2_floquet1.pdf)[3](https://www.cfm.brown.edu/people/dobrush/am34/Mathematica/ch2/floquet.html). The eigenvalues are the Floquet multipliers and they determine the stability of the equilibrium state. [If all eigenvalues have modulus less than one, then the equilibrium state is stable](https://personal.math.ubc.ca/~ward/teaching/m605/every2_floquet1.pdf)[2](https://personal.math.ubc.ca/~ward/teaching/m605/every2_floquet1.pdf)[3](https://www.cfm.brown.edu/people/dobrush/am34/Mathematica/ch2/floquet.html).

L=12m(x˙2+y˙2)−mgycosθ+12Iθ˙2−T(xsinθ−ycosθ) (1)

where L is the Lagrangian, m is the mass of the kite, x and y are the horizontal and vertical coordinates of the kite’s center of mass, g is the gravitational acceleration, θ is the angle between the kite and the horizontal line, I is the moment of inertia of the kite about its center of mass, and T is the tension in the control line.

The Euler-Lagrange equations for this system are:

dLdx˙=dtdLdx (2)

dLdy˙=dtdLdy (3)

dLdθ˙=dtdLdθ (4)

Substituting L from (1) into (2), (3) and (4), we get:

mx¨+Tsinθ=0 (5)

my¨+Tcosθ−mg=0 (6)

Iθ¨+Txcosθ+Tysinθ=0 (7)

These are nonlinear equations that depend on x, y, θ and their derivatives. To linearize them around an equilibrium state, we need to find a set of values for x0,y0,θ0,T0 that satisfy:

mx¨0+T0sinθ0=0

my¨0+T0cosθ0−mg=0

Iθ¨0+T0xcosθ0+T0ysinθ"


It will calculate outputs once inputs are defined. It's like a toy car with Formula Racing features.
"

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-03-14 21:37:23 UTC | #775

[quote="AweEnthusiast, post:774, topic:1610"]
Sadly, the free chatbot interface does not format into LaTex, nor support other basic word-processing features.
[/quote]

Discourse does however.

Write this `$ LaTex $` to get this $ LaTex $.

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-03-15 00:04:34 UTC | #777

I've said this before, this is what we see. You can't paste images from your email. 
[quote="AweEnthusiast, post:776, topic:1610"]
Inline image
[/quote]



[quote]
**Please change the equations to be written in LaTex, the variables also. Please put the LaTex code between `$ $`, like so: `$ My LaTex Code $`.**

To characterize a classic kite under Floquet theory, you need to write a linearized equation of motion for the kite’s position and orientation around an equilibrium state. Then you need to find the eigenvalues and eigenvectors of the monodromy matrix, which is obtained by evaluating $e^{A(T)}$, where $T$ is the period of $A(t)$.

The eigenvalues are the Floquet multipliers and they determine the stability of the equilibrium state. If all eigenvalues have modulus less than one, then the equilibrium state is stable.

The Lagrangian for the kite is given by:

$L= \frac{1}{2} m(\dot{x}^2+\dot{y}^2)-mgycos\theta + \frac{1}{2}I\dot{\theta}^2-T(xsin\theta-ycos\theta)$ (1)

where $L$ is the Lagrangian, $m$ is the mass of the kite, $x$ and $y$ are the horizontal and vertical coordinates of the kite’s center of mass, $g$ is the gravitational acceleration, $\theta$ is the angle between the kite and the horizontal line, $I$ is the moment of inertia of the kite about its center of mass, and $T$ is the tension in the control line.

The Euler-Lagrange equations for this system are:

$\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{x}}=\frac{\partial L}{\partial x}$ (2)

$\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{y}}=\frac{\partial L}{\partial y}$ (3)

$\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{\theta}}=\frac{\partial L}{\partial \theta}$ (4)

Substituting $L$ from (1) into (2), (3), and (4), we get:

$mx''+Tsin\theta=0$ (5)

$my''+Tcos\theta-mg=0$ (6)

$I\theta''+Txcos\theta+Tysin\theta=0$ (7)

These are nonlinear equations that depend on $x$, $y$, $\theta$, and their derivatives. To linearize them around an equilibrium state, we need to find a set of values for $x_0$, $y_0$, $\theta_0$, and $T_0$ that satisfy:

$mx''_0+T_0sin\theta_0=0$

$my''_0+T_0cos\theta_0-mg=0$

$I\theta''_0+T_0xcos\theta_0+T_0ysin\theta_0=0$

[/quote]

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-03-15 00:48:39 UTC | #778

https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/11rc02e/news_openai_announced_gpt4/

-------------------------

PierreB | 2023-03-15 05:49:36 UTC | #779

I guess that as soon as the format issues have been resolved by putting $LaTex$ code between two $, @AweEnthusiast John's two posts on AI will return to the top of their respective topics with comment(s), where they were, having no reason more to be on Slow Chat...

Indeed, it is only a matter of  $.

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-03-15 07:57:02 UTC | #780

### GPT-4 Khan Academy In Depth Demo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnIgnS8Susg

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-03-15 08:28:50 UTC | #781

[quote="PierreB, post:779, topic:1610"]
I guess that
[/quote]

Let's focus on the first topic. It has multiple obvious issues that anyone should be able to notice. Can you explain to the reader what the most important ones are?

Writing for an audience you have to extend courtesies to make your text more easily digestible and the statements in it verifiable. Too many of them were not extended here to let the topic stay as it was. They can try again, within reason.

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-03-15 09:58:58 UTC | #782

### GPT 4: Full Breakdown (14 Crazy Details You May Have Missed) - Last One is Extra Wild

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AdkSYWB6LY

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-03-15 14:36:26 UTC | #783



ChatGPT:
[quote]
**I would like to generate electricity by pulling train locomotives with kites. Assuming the technology works, what would I need to do get my trains on the U.S. rail network?**

Generating electricity by pulling train locomotives with kites is an innovative idea, and there may be some potential for its application in certain contexts. However, there are several factors to consider before attempting to introduce this technology on the U.S. rail network.

Firstly, it's important to note that the U.S. rail network is heavily regulated, and any new technology or equipment would need to meet certain safety and operational standards. You would need to conduct a thorough review of the existing regulations and determine whether your technology meets the necessary standards.

Secondly, you would need to obtain approval from the railroads that operate on the network. The railroads are private companies that own and operate the majority of the rail network in the U.S., and they may have their own safety and operational standards that need to be met. You would need to engage with the railroads and provide them with information about your technology, including how it works and how it would integrate with their existing operations.

Thirdly, you would need to conduct a pilot test of your technology to demonstrate its viability and safety. This would likely involve working with a railroad to conduct a limited trial of your technology, during which you could gather data and feedback from the railroad and other stakeholders.

Finally, you would need to secure funding to develop and implement your technology. This could involve seeking grants or other funding opportunities from government agencies or private investors.

In summary, introducing a new technology like kite-powered train locomotives on the U.S. rail network would require careful planning, engagement with stakeholders, compliance with regulations and standards, and significant investment.
[/quote]


[quote]
**Please tell me all you know about track access fees.**

Track access fees are fees charged by railroad companies to other companies that wish to use their tracks for transportation. These fees are charged on a per-mile basis and can vary widely depending on a variety of factors, such as the type of cargo, the volume of traffic, and the distance traveled.

Track access fees typically cover the use of the tracks, signaling systems, and other related infrastructure. In addition, railroads may charge fees for other services such as loading and unloading cargo, storing equipment, and providing access to facilities such as intermodal yards or transloading facilities.

The specific fees charged for track access can vary depending on the railroad company and the specific circumstances of the shipment. Fees may be negotiable, and shippers may be able to obtain discounts for larger volumes of cargo or for long-term contracts. In addition, some railroads may offer incentives for shippers who are able to operate their trains in a more fuel-efficient or environmentally friendly manner.

Railroad companies typically determine track access fees based on a variety of factors, including the cost of maintaining and operating the tracks and other infrastructure, the level of demand for track access, and the competition from other railroads and other modes of transportation.

In the United States, track access fees are regulated by the Surface Transportation Board (STB), which is an independent federal agency responsible for overseeing the railroad industry. The STB has the authority to review and approve the fees charged by railroad companies to ensure that they are reasonable and not discriminatory. Shippers who believe that they are being charged unreasonable or discriminatory fees can file a complaint with the STB for review.

In summary, track access fees are a key cost component of using the railway network for transportation, and they can vary widely depending on a variety of factors. Shippers who are interested in using the railway network should be aware of the specific fees charged by the railroad companies and be prepared to negotiate these fees to obtain the best possible terms for their shipments.
[/quote]
[quote]
**Please write a very long article about abandoned railway lines for someone who would like to make use of them to test a new technology.**

Abandoned railway lines offer a unique opportunity for entrepreneurs and innovators to test new technologies and develop new business models. These unused tracks are often available for purchase or lease from the railroad companies that own them, and can provide an ideal testing ground for a wide variety of innovative projects.

One potential use for abandoned railway lines is as a test bed for new transportation technologies. For example, companies developing new types of autonomous vehicles or drones could use the tracks to test their systems in a controlled environment, away from the risks and uncertainties of public roads. Similarly, researchers developing new propulsion systems for trains or other modes of transportation could use the tracks to test their technologies in a real-world setting.

Another potential use for abandoned railway lines is as a site for renewable energy projects. The tracks and surrounding land could be used for the installation of solar panels, wind turbines, or other types of clean energy systems. In addition, the abandoned rail infrastructure, including bridges and tunnels, could be repurposed for hydroelectric power generation.

Abandoned railway lines could also be used as a site for innovative recreational and tourism projects. For example, the tracks and surrounding land could be developed into a bike or hiking trail, providing a new and unique outdoor experience for visitors. Similarly, the tracks could be used for the development of railbike or railcart tours, offering a novel way to explore the local countryside.

The use of abandoned railway lines for testing new technologies and developing innovative projects is not without challenges. For example, the tracks may require significant repairs or upgrades before they can be used, and the cost of acquiring or leasing the land and infrastructure can be substantial. In addition, there may be regulatory or legal barriers to using the tracks for certain types of projects.

However, with careful planning and collaboration with local stakeholders and government agencies, these challenges can be overcome. Entrepreneurs and innovators who are interested in using abandoned railway lines for testing new technologies or developing innovative projects should consider working with local economic development agencies or other organizations to identify opportunities and navigate the regulatory and legal landscape.

In conclusion, abandoned railway lines offer a unique opportunity for entrepreneurs and innovators to test new technologies and develop new business models. Whether for transportation, renewable energy, or recreational purposes, these unused tracks provide a valuable resource that can be repurposed to support new and innovative projects. With careful planning and collaboration, abandoned railway lines can be a valuable asset for communities and businesses looking to build a more sustainable and innovative future.
[/quote]

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-03-15 17:54:10 UTC | #784

There somewhere like this where I live? About 100 track miles of of former London and southwestern railway track?  It forms part of the castleman corkscrew? It could connect to Christchurch, brockenhurst, sailisbury, Poole, and the old Somerset and Dorset line? Vai Wimborne. I had asked a Mp if we could rebuild it? There are a few major obstacles? However not impossible to overcome with the right know how? I’m also aware of an update to the atmospheric railway 
https://youtu.be/KniP3T_PPB4 
That could be totally green energy? 
I suggest having the castle man corkscrew as a test bed for green railway technology? Ive walked parts of the old track bed. There is room to add extra stops? Moors valley and ferndown industrial estate?  Even west moors, three legged cross? On the sailisbury spur? I wanted it for the railway preservation front? But had a mind for some way to run green energy locomotives? Sir Christopher Chope mp. I bet there are many potential site globally that could be brought into service? 
@Windy_Skies  chatGTP seams to think like I do? Funnily enough? 
I haven’t the resources myself but with the right investors? The uk can have a test bed or two?  @Rodread might be a few places up near you? If I remember my railway history right? Pretty sure there a old whiskey line that could be used? Kite powered railways? A very neat idea? Just get past the planners will be tricky? Hijack something remote and it might work?
There one railway that needs saving it doon valley? Due to the landowner selling? £25000 needed? But you might be able to wangle a deal? That service a few purposes?  

So yes. There are options? Even old dock lines? Kite boarder kites would spice things up? Especially with direct transfer of electricity? It almost a dream come true? Just depends what your looking for?

-------------------------

AweEnthusiast | 2023-03-16 19:01:05 UTC | #785

Closely related but not exactly the same thing-

> Lattice waves travel along the kite train line.
> Metachronal waves travel along the kite train tails.

[(56) 50 Kite Train - but not for long! - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhinEQBekj4&t=89s)

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-03-19 09:59:15 UTC | #786

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/mar/18/a-wake-up-call-total-weight-of-wild-mammals-less-than-10-of-humanitys

-------------------------

AweEnthusiast | 2023-04-04 19:20:23 UTC | #788

1kt tension at 10m/sec = 1GW

-------------------------

PierreB | 2023-04-04 19:20:23 UTC | #789

Power(watts) =  F(newtons) $X$ V(m/s).
1kt tension at 10m/sec = 98.0665 MW (almost 100 MW).

What is the point of this topic?

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-04-08 23:01:19 UTC | #790

Practical experiments with tethered balloons and kite balloons from 1885:

[[Annual Reports of the Aeronautical Society of Great Britain vol. 22] - Kite Balloons and Kite Tandems (1890).pdf|attachment](upload://kOKR9sNN816Xmo8BCgomhPQDIyT.pdf) (1.0 MB)

[[Scientific American 1897-jul 03 vol. 77 iss. 1] - Parseval's Kite Balloon (1897).pdf|attachment](upload://fU307Xvk8mXrs59zvbe2vD15VS4.pdf) (216.1 KB)

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-04-09 00:07:51 UTC | #791

[[Scientific American 1899-dec 02 vol. 81 iss. 23] - The Lecornu Cellular Kite (1899).pdf|attachment](upload://5vsbK7g1ix6w1aKWVkJksiqZv6n.pdf) (627.1 KB)



[quote]
THE LECORNU CELLULAR KITE.

There is no amusement more fascinating, more instructive or more easily engaged in by everybody than kite-flying. Although it is much in favor on the other side of the Atlantic, it is yet too much neglected in France. Almost everywhere in the United States, there are to be found kite clubs analogous to the French bicycle and photographic societies, and which are in the habit of organizing competitions of various kinds. It is a great pity that the sport is not indulged in in France as much as it deserves to be, for the kite is a wonderful apparatus, of which a host of curious and interesting applications may be made. It is almost without a rival for the study of atmospheric electricity and for topographic photography. It may be employed as a life saving and signaling apparatus, for the practice of wireless telegraphy, for the study of meteorology, and even, as with the balloon, for making ascensions. The ordinary kite is familiar to every one. Whatever be its form, lozenge-shaped, rectangular, elliptical, hexagonal, octagonal, etc., it always consists of a plane surface provided with a bridle to which the string is attached, and with a tail of varying length. This last-named appendage was for a long time looked upon as indispensable, and it seemed as if a tailless kite could not be thought of. But the Oriental kites imported from China and Japan destroyed such an opinion.

If we attentively examine the tailless Japanese and Chinese kites we shall see that they are no longer plane, but either (like the Japanese flies) consist of a plane part and two wings forming pockets and inclined toward the rear, or, (like the Chinese apparatus) present curved surfaces. This, in fact, is because the plane kite is unstable. It is like a plank that we should like to keep in equilibrium in a current of water, and at right angles therewith, in holding it by a single rope. It is evident that however carefully we fixed this rope at the center of the thrust, the board would be in a state of unstable equilibrium and would continually revolve around its point of attachment. It would be entirely different if we should fasten a string to the handle of an umbrella and present the concavity of the latter to the current. When we study the stability of the tailless kite, we are thus led to seek forms that are entirely different from those of the flat kite.

Without extending this brief statement of the question any further, we shall merely say that one of the best forms to adopt for the tailless kite is the cell. We mean by this the form obtained with at least three, but generally four planes intersecting each other in pairs according to parallel straight lines. We thus obtain a sort of bottomless box. The walls are of paper or of some light fabric. To make the matter plain, let us conceive of a cell of square section. This will present itself in the form of a box of which the four sides will exist, but of which the top and bottom will be suppressed. If we present this cell to the wind in such a way that two of the sides shall be horizontal and two others vertical, it is evident that the air will pass freely through the cell without exerting any pressure capable of raising it; but if we elevate the front edge of the cell slightly, the wind, in pressing the lower surfaces of the walls that were previously horizontal, will tend to raise the apparatus. The latter will have great stability by reason of the existence of the two vertical sides, which, in a manner, play the same part as the keel of a boat.

The sides of the cell that undergo a pressure are the sustaining planes, and the vertical sides the directing ones. If we place two of these cells one behind the other, in leaving between them an interval equal at least to their length, we shall have the Hargrave cellular hovering kite adopted at the Blue Hill Observatory (in the United States), where through the intermedium of meteorological registering apparatus, it is used for exploring the upper regions of the atmosphere. In certain experiments, such apparatus have reached heights of from 5,000, to 6,500 feet.

If, on the contrary, we juxtapose not two but a greater number of cells, say six, eight, twelve, or more, in the same frame, we shall obtain the multicellular hovering kite, which we have devised and constructed after numerous tentatives.

We at the outset placed four rectangular cells one above another, and thus obtained an apparatus having exactly the form of a set of shelves. We tried this upon the beach of Cobourg in 1898; but, since the stability did not prove as great as that which we desired to obtain, we were led to multiply the number of cells and to employ square cells, with one diagonal and horizontal and the other vertical.

Each cell taken isolatedly thus flies upon the side and presents to the wind surfaces that are inclined, one to the right and the other to the left, somewhat as in the case of a boat that is floating upon its keel.

We have in this way constructed a kite of wonderful stability, which rises with the greatest ease and maintains itself in the air with complete immobility.

Our multicellular hovering kite is very easily constructed. It requires as a rigid frame only four wooden rods having the length of one cell and placed at the four corners of the entire affair formed of all the cells, and two cross pieces, one in front and the other behind to give rigidity to the whole.

It may be put together and taken apart in a few minutes with the greatest ease. After being taken apart, it may be rolled up and carried very easily up on a bicycle.

It is so easily managed that any one can send it aloft and maneuver it without difficulty. When it is in the air, it is so stable that ten yards of string may be suddenly paid out without causing it to fall. Finally, its sustaining power is so great that, in a brisk wind, we have been able to make it raise a dummy formed of a child's clothing and fixed to an umbrella. And yet the kite is not of very large size, its dimensions being four feet in length and breadth and 16 inches in depth, while its weight is a little less than four and a half pounds.

We are indebted to La Vie Scientifique for the description of this form of kite.


[/quote]

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-04-09 01:04:36 UTC | #792

There aren't that many results for *kite* in libgen before 1922 when it still had some interest. This is the oldest result:

[[Philosophical Transactions (1665-1678) vol. 47] Benjamin Franklin - A Letter of Benjamin Franklin, Esq_ to Mr. Peter Collinson, F. R. S. concerning an Electrical Kite (1751-1752).pdf|attachment](upload://505UiVaCx9hs769bDmUbdXqscdK.pdf) (347.1 KB)

And this one of the newest: 

[[Aeronautical journal (London England 1897) 1915-dec vol. 19 iss. 76] Bryan, G. H. - The Small Oscillations of a Kite (1915).pdf|attachment](upload://qhbxF0hpdlMSesTwZ75ckJPDnaV.pdf) (470.3 KB)

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-04-11 14:20:04 UTC | #793

im going a bit off topic but iy might be useful?
as edgeware on blades is huge? ive been sat down thinking how to negate it? i might have an idea? but i might be wrong so here goes? each blade make it own bow shock as it turns? so the addition of ridges alon the leading edges to act like riffles should help create a false edge to the blade?  by turn the air flow back on it self and fling the particulates of the tips. it should work easy enough? i cheched the tongue and grove with saw dust this morning/ and yes the particulate can be blown in a certain direction? it reminded me of a game played by athletic types? pelota? the scoop rackets? 
![image|286x203](upload://3AOKod0YAdzJAScOvrr3X3gf8ND.png)
and jai alai and vx game played by the brits? lacrosse? so have some idea it might work? 

the ball represent the particulates? as long as the groove follow the blades curves along the total length? then it should shift the particulates down the length? the groove would form valleys. the top of the valleys would follow the aerodynamic edges a long the length? i can't say how much edge erosion this would reduce? but as edge is due to on coming particulates? the best thing i could think of was how to moving that out the way? 
![image|310x180](upload://1H6YyuKJ8ZmTI66gL9mboAIhSmF.png)
run the goove along the profiles edges? it don't need to be deep it just need to form a vortices to shift particulate out the way? 

it will be a common problem for turbines? it some thing that require a fix? to prolong a blades life? 
let me know hat you think and if improvement are possible?

many thank,
freeflying

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-04-12 14:16:22 UTC | #794

The search term is **Leading Edge Erosion**.

https://hackaday.com/2022/10/05/leading-edge-erosion-when-precipitation-destroys-wind-turbine-blades/

[quote]
In a study by [Law et al.](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/we.2540) (2020) the data from wind farms across the United Kingdom was analyzed. It was found that an average loss of output by each wind turbine per year of about 1.8% was to be expected, with the worst affected wind turbine experiencing losses of 4.9%.

Most interestingly about the study by Law et al. was the finding that the application of leading edge repair tape (leading edge protection, or LEP) to repair LEE damage to a turbine’s 3-year old blades resulted in an additional 1.29% drop in output. This shows just how important the shape of the turbine blades is in order to get the best possible performance, and exemplifies the issue with field repairs using LEP tape.

Although there’s an argument to be made that leaving the LEE to continue unchecked would lead to even worse performance over time, there should not be the expectation that applying tape to the leading edge of a damaged turbine blade will return it to its former glory. [Major et al.](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0309524X20975446) (2020) also report a 2%-3% drop in Annual Energy Production (AEP) from the use of LEP tape.
[/quote]

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-04-14 13:11:24 UTC | #795

![image|690x478](upload://ytB0u92XB7RiptBSXHzsqcUy6Id.jpeg)
@Windy_Skies  my think was to looking for a way to eliminate leading edge erosion completely? 
nature as deveople many way to protect soft tissue from this kind of prolong damage. a bird wing is one example of management? kestrels face these issue due to dive bombing prey? so it might of take generations to develop a countermeasures? it seems afew are already experimenting with idea?
![image|323x182](upload://LGaZolndBW2xGhS0QYI0EMpwm1.png)
birds had feathers long before that?
![image|124x186](upload://fjJSYzrBcz1JB8pI7vilhDB5kHo.png)
just a question of which to direct the airflow through the channels to prevent edge erosion?

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-04-14 19:28:13 UTC | #796

You'd have to read up on the research on leading edge erosion to learn more about mitigation. I don't think the shape of the blade matters much.

The search term for what you are posting now is **leading edge serrations** I think. Some more info: 

https://forum.awesystems.info/t/trailing-and-leading-edge-serrations/1136


https://forum.awesystems.info/t/biomimicry-airfoils-inspired-by-humpback-whales-seals-and-other-animals/99

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-04-14 19:30:45 UTC | #797

### Tom Scott - This tiny hovercraft went viral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPTSSHRnnWw

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-04-18 09:43:06 UTC | #798

thank you! 
will be a good read with a cuppa!
well sign posted!

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-04-19 09:06:00 UTC | #799


https://www.reddit.com/r/RenewableEnergy/comments/12pbz9g/major_drop_in_lithium_prices_could_mean_cheaper/

[quote]

[–]SpaceGoatAlpha 14 points 1 day ago 

I think upcoming debut of industrial scale manufacturing for other battery types from common metals is going to make the price lithium plummet even further. I think lithium will still carry on for EVS for a while, but as far as stationery storage goes, I think things are going to change pretty significantly.

Some of the early numbers I've been reading have been giving estimates of 40kwh battery packs for less than $500.

$12.50/kwh As opposed to the current $260-$295 per kwh storage for quality LiFePo4.

The newer batteries don't have the same high efficiency as lithium batteries, but at that price it really doesn't matter.

400kwh of storage for $5,000 means you'll be able to bank practically every excess electron from your system.

[/quote]
[quote]

[–]notalbymangels 3 points 1 day ago 

>Some of the early numbers I've been reading have been giving estimates of 40kwh battery packs for less than $500.

Got any more info on this? I'd like to read about whatever this is.

I pull about 7kwh per day from the grid and send about 20kwh back on average. 40kwh storage would make me fully independent, for $500 I'd buy it tomorrow if it was available.
[/quote]
[quote]

[–]SpaceGoatAlpha 3 points 1 day ago 

It's almost mostly bits and pieces from here and there from the internet, and from discussions I've had with various engineers.

No easy or official statements just yet, as the market for many of these battery types hasn't even been established yet.

They're really good thing is that there are multiple, not just one two or three, but upwards of 12 new types of battery technologies being developed, and at least six of them are going to be going into production in 2024 in the US.

Iron oxide batteries, sodium ion, zinc sulfide/sulfate and multiple other chemistries of liquid batteries, molten batteries, metallic hydrogen, and a few other variations.

The batteries that I'm personally looking forward to most are going to be the sodium ion batteries. The current generations have lower energy density than lithium ion, but charge faster and have 3-5x the cycle life. This is before any significant electrolyte doping to increase cell longevity like LiFePo4 batteries, and with the very significant advances in manufacturing technology that came about from lithium-ion batteries, the majority of that cell standardization can be transferred directly to the manufacture of sodium ion batteries. Refined metallic sodium also costs something like 3 to 6% as much as lithium, and you can get sodium nearly anywhere.

I'm right there with you, if the batteries were available I would be backing up a semi.

I'm very very glad that I didn't go all in on LiFePo4 batteries a few years ago, just a handful of them for emergency use. Hopefully I'll be able to sell the ones I have and recoup some of the cost once better options become available.
[/quote]
[quote]

[–]gromm93 0 points 1 day ago 

>I'm right there with you, if the batteries were available I would be backing up a semi.

Exactly. So what do you think power utilities would be doing if this was a thing anywhere? They'd be on solar at utility scale like hair on a bear with billion dollar wholesale purchases at prices like that. It's free money for them.

The numbers you were quoting are almost certainly pure speculation if they're anything but a pipe dream at this point.
[/quote]
[quote]

[–]SpaceGoatAlpha 1 point 23 hours ago* 

>u/gromm93 Exactly. So what do you think power utilities would be doing if this was a thing anywhere? They'd be on solar at utility scale like hair on a bear with billion dollar wholesale purchases at prices like that. It's free money for them. The numbers you were quoting are almost certainly pure speculation if they're anything but a pipe dream at this point.

🤨 Utility companies actually already are. If you don't think that utility companies and other energy interests aren't already on the ball and haven't been planning for this for literally decades in advance, well, I guess you haven't been paying attention. Not to be a dick, but it seems like you're leaping to negative conclusions based on a complete lack of knowledge or evidence, which is frankly kind of a weird thing to intentionally do.

The reason why so many startup energy storage companies have been able to get financing to build so quickly is because utility companies have -already- pre-purchased the bulk of the next few YEARS worth of production in advance. (Which is a usually a basic requirement for most financiers)

The collective investment in just a handful of plants is already well into multi-billions of dollars, and probably pushing into the hundreds of billions of dollars when you consider long-term sales agreements.

If you take all of the current and planned battery production plants that have already been announced, it's easily pushing into the trillions of dollars in planned long term investment and purchase over the next couple decades. And that's just in the United States.

Yes, the numbers I'm presenting for the $/kwh are speculative, that's why they were called ESTIMATES. They are probably based more on manufacturing costs and estimated wholesale prices and certainly far less than the prices that you personally will likely ever see in the free market, so yeah, comparing speculative prices to actual prices for a LiFePo4 is just a dream. (But a fun one)

You also need to keep in mind that there are multiple different types of batteries, each with their own benefits and drawbacks, like weight, charging efficiency, etc that dramatically influence pricing, and one price estimate certainly doesn't apply to all battery types, so use your critical thinking.

Iron oxide batteries are estimated to go from between $15 to $25 dollars a kilowatt hour, for example, but classically have energy losses between 35 and 45%.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/iron-air-batteries-10-times-cheaper-than-li-ion-will-start-mass-production-in-2024-208539.html

Personally I think many of the better metal/oxide batteries, like sodium ion, will be going for closer to $65 to $85 a kilowatt hour, because money, but even then prices are eventually going to have downwards pressure as more production comes online.

Despite the dramatically increased price of lithium a significant portion of the cost of the batteries is still the actual manufacturing and production, and those same costs are going to roll over into the production of sodium ion batteries.

Because of the abundance and distribution of sodium there shouldn't ever be any kind of scarcity issues, and I predict that pricing will largely come down to production and manufacturing efficiency, just like solar panels are now. Exciting times for the energy and manufacturing sectors.
[/quote]
[quote]

[–]SpaceGoatAlpha 2 points 23 hours ago* 

@ u/notalbymangels

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/iron-air-batteries-10-times-cheaper-than-li-ion-will-start-mass-production-in-2024-208539.html

https://etn.news/buzz/enervenue-metal-hydrogen-battery-plant-kentucky-us

And some general information about EV battery manufacturing in the US

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/05/map-which-states-will-build-the-most-ev-batteries-in-2030.html

https://www.npr.org/2022/12/30/1145844885/2022-ev-battery-plants

There are a LOT of public announcements about opening of various manufacturing plants and new battery technologies, but for the large majority of them hard pricing/capacity information is very very slim to non-existent just yet.

[/quote]
[quote]

[–]notalbymangels 2 points 22 hours ago 

Thanks for this I'll make some time to look at them tomorrow.

[/quote]
[quote]
[–]Zen_Diesel 2 points 1 day ago 

A lot of flow batteries getting installed. They aren’t as energy dense, but they are industrial scale and stackable in shipping containers. Also don’t gave the same degradation and temperature issues.

[/quote]
[quote]

[–]Notarussianbot2020 1 point 4 hours ago 

Chery just teased their first sodium ion battery car. Even if the west doesn't follow suit, an exploding eastern market would sure help Li availability.

[/quote]

-------------------------

AndreasEisele | 2023-04-26 10:08:38 UTC | #800

Could **hanging wind turbines** make any sense?

Dear all, an idea is haunting me since a couple of months which  may be a bit off-topic, but related to AWE, so I would like to tap your combined expertise to find out whether (and why) this is completely crazy and doomed, or already old and described somewhere else (where?), or if it is indeed an idea that may have potential.  Also please let me know if this is not the right place to discuss the idea and tell me where it should be moved if there is a better place.

I am aware of the well-know arguments in favor of AWE (better winds, potentially less material & lower cost, less interference with nature and people living nearby), but I also observe that AWE is incredibly hard to implement in real life.  My explanation is simple: Tapping wind in high altitude has huge potential, but building scalable and robust devices that fly under often adverse conditions is also extremely hard, which makes it immensely challenging to compete against the tremendous successes of main stream wind energy which has undergone decades of optimization and scaling.

My proposal: a compromise and maybe an intermediate step toward AWE could be to try and **reach high altitudes without actually flying**.  

The next best thing I can think of is to hang a WT from a support that is already in high altitudes, such as a steel cable spanned between mountain tops (like in aerial lifts) or between poles/masts/towers, held by guy-wires if needed.  
The idea would be that on one such cable we could have several or even many, perhaps smaller wind turbines that hang down, but may move sideways in the wind.  The cable could also support electrical wires that bring the harvested energy down to earth. I think the idea is compatible with quite a number of shapes the turbines may have, including VAWTs, laddermills, some variant of Doug Selsam's superturbines or anything else one could dream of.  In all cases, I see it as an advantage that there is no need to work against gravity, but gravity can be our friend, and even if there is no wind, the devices, however they may look like, do not need to be landed but can just hang around waiting for the next opportunity to generate electricity.  In my view that might take out just enough complexity to make the whole thing feasible in a not-so-distant future (given my age and the urgency of the matter I want to focus on things I may still see working in the coming two decades).  A hanging WT with the possibility to move/bend sideways could also help to address one of the drawbacks of VAWT, namely the inability to be turned out of the wind if it is too strong.

Has anything like this ever been described or worked out? Are there even patents or practical explorations?  Or is this idea completely dead in the water for obvious reasons I just do not manage to see? Could someone please help me out?
Thanks a lot for your opinions on this!

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-04-26 19:35:33 UTC | #801

Probably dead in the water. But this is too abstract perhaps to make definitive statements about.

The most obvious use would be undersea, but that has obvious probably insurmountable difficulties. See a recent discussion:


https://www.reddit.com/r/mechanical_gifs/comments/12rpso3/a_cuttingedge_prototype_of_a_hydraulic_turbine/


What does wind look like in the mountains? Where are some steep windy mountains? Can you make or grow a cheaper tower?

-------------------------

tallakt | 2023-04-26 19:38:03 UTC | #802

[quote="AndreasEisele, post:800, topic:1610"]
Has anything like this ever been described or worked out?
[/quote]

I know Selsam had some concepts like that, with a wire over a valley…

-------------------------

Rodread | 2023-04-27 06:28:31 UTC | #803

I also think it's an idea worth exploring more.

There was a proposal - think it was called a wind dam.

I drew a few ideas waaay back. And flew a valley suspended daisy kite turbine.

The advantage of mountain gaps as pre raised rigid structure seems obviously worth investigating.

I worked on an algorithm to take a set of anchor points and then fill the bounded volume with tensile rope lattice (like kids 3d climbing frames)
Using structures like that for infilling gaps with fixed "flying" utility and generation elements could also be really handy.

-------------------------

gordon_sp | 2023-04-27 16:05:46 UTC | #804

[quote="AndreasEisele, post:800, topic:1610"]
Tapping wind in high altitude has huge potential, but building scalable and robust devices that fly under often adverse conditions is also extremely hard
[/quote]

An alternative method to suspending an AWE device between mountains is to have a method of rapid retraction of the kite if wind conditions are unstable too strong, or the wind dies completely.  One concept is my idea of using a [RESTRAINED LIFTER KITE] to launch and land. Launching and landing is intrinsically safer than trying to limit overspeed by furloughing or various other means. If we assume that the kite is flying at an altitude of 1000 m and we can retract the kite at a speed of 12 m/s, then the kite can be lowered in only 1.4 minutes which is a reasonable time. With the ability to launch and land we do not require strong materials for the kite and turbine system and so the system can be constructed of lighter materials.

-------------------------

batlabat | 2023-04-28 17:06:49 UTC | #805

Interesting this discussion about the wind gradient in the annual report. They are using a power 1/4 whereas the "standard" value used today is more 1/7 for the wind profile power law. The power 1/4 would correspond to the stable boundary layer. I recommend this paper for this interesting by wind at sea with experimental evidences https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354631486_PRELIMINARY_RESULTS_ON_MEASUREMENTS_OF_THE_ATMOSPHERIC_BOUNDARY_LAYER_OVER_THE_ATLANTIC

-------------------------

batlabat | 2023-04-28 17:17:54 UTC | #806

I once though about this at small scale when I was doing a hackathon in Matera for the kiderwind project https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100069602003197
![image|374x500](upload://wEDu1JjS5rkhoPxMYno2BXziMms.jpeg)
It didn't go further, but I think you can test at small scale (should be difficult enough already !), but you might find some niche applications.

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-04-29 09:57:32 UTC | #807

if i may interject? there is a few ways.  if going for suspended AWES?
1.cable across any canyon or ravine?
2. fix to pre existing structure like bridges or viaducts? 
the grand canyon would make for an awesome site if you were to go the cable route? 
![image|286x180](upload://eAjiLqSdQsCdoJbaoGK5XaTGMaP.jpeg)
 Britain has loads of abandoned railway infrastructure? i suspect it like that in many place round the world? so would not take muck to retrofit? many are in deep valleys anyway? 
with this option you do have the potential for using less primary materials? and its one way to make the railways a we bit greener? absolutely thousands of bridges and viaducts to choose from?  there might even be opportunities to restore damaged infrastructure? 
![image|256x180](upload://zFWxd75yAsr9wE7izCu5wOsVlEh.png)
![image|257x180](upload://ioWR1HnkKOH1giHE50uZogY0Ec5.png)
![image|321x180](upload://o7SJ0AOcK4ga7g8Qvp3tX4yT26F.jpeg)
though it don't have to be conventional three bladed turbine. to work? just depend on what you hope to rig up? 
don't quote me here? but there may have been a few proposals to stretch solar across a ravine using cables? i wish i had more info than that? quick picture i saw a few years pack i wish i had remembered exactly who posted it and where? if true that would mean it can be on multiple levels?  

as for my machinations on this? which i have had several I've been meaning to write down? one involve a multi purpose bridge across the biggest gap you can find? my dreaming were more local to me. like old harry to the needles. a city inside a bridge?  even a use bridge for cargo transfer?  even water treatment and other services like road and rail, coms, electrical?  was even thing of building and airport on the bridge? im sure the MOD would like a super secret base? HMS bridge?  because most modern bridges use down force. like the seven bridge does? most are hollow?
![image|277x86](upload://6nQlmfG0l4by7hLE2zYwVMsLpXQ.png) 
there is potential for awes application. because of my special interests in engineering structures there's a mind to various techniques used historically?  like box girder bridges? and old architectural features like segmented arches? that are completely self supporting? 
![image|267x180](upload://cmdhoSjY9PbW1xPDyLt9EQOZSMX.png) in essence segmented box girder bridge? im lucky that few people have done the geological work in my area? so ive a rough idea where fault zones are? and roughly what dynamics are in play? university of Southampton has some information on the rock in my region
[Geology of the Wessex Coast, Southern England by Ian West - Index and Home Page (soton.ac.uk)](https://wessexcoastgeology.soton.ac.uk/) and 
![image|690x311](upload://lmRVaRSOW69IeQs6UmdXzOg1FsP.png)
![image|644x500](upload://9aUGKkhP03TEbXUwrpqZXYnqlEL.jpeg)
![image|627x500](upload://fVMPTcEVszBKeZbJvLh5mL8UhFo.jpeg)
there is a lot more read on the university of Southampton website link.

 this would come in a category of mega awes? geo engineering?  in my mind its possible? it a question to how practical it would be? as you need the geological surveys? just to asses thrust pressure on the geology? so you need to know exactly where the faults are? one man made earthquake? bye bye bridge? obviously this would need to be dialled in for any region? especial because of the compression force being so high? that it would act like a hydraulic press? on the rock? which would shatter and pulverise the rock? a careful design would have to be chosen?

 the bridge option possibly the quickest solution?  because of the massive swept area? this would also could be an aeromine  variant with jet turbine built into the super structure? there was talk of bridging the baring strait for the trans global network? it was figuring out how to get across and still allow ice to flow underneath? and for shipping to continue? it would be possible to build the sections in a dry dock and float them out to site? or if more remote? use aerodynamics to help out? by flying the bridge section into place?   they are sort of an ready made aerofoil?  there are thing like vtol? variable vector controls?  just I've never seen it on a massive scale?  so peeps? that just a little take on it from my end of things? there is scaling potentials?  @AndreasEisele @Windy_Skies @tallakt @gordon_sp @batlabat @Rodread @PierreB @dougselsam

-------------------------

tallakt | 2023-04-30 05:45:04 UTC | #808

Custom made AWE per site is a limited market so that could be a reason it did not attract venture capital. I hope that the AWE community doesnt end up destroying a monumental piece of nature like the grand canyon. 

That all being said, there could be enough places where some small scale AWE could make sense, like bridges maybe?

-------------------------

Rodread | 2023-04-30 06:45:31 UTC | #809

Custom doesn't have to be difficult
An automated process from a parametric design model can belch out custom fit without modification on modular parts

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-04-30 13:46:16 UTC | #810

agreed lads. 
with lazer scanning be a wildly used tool now days. there would be a high degree of accuracy?  especially with custom fits? im fairly sure the (scan Britain project)? has some the required data? something the OS did? as it was their job to go around scanning monuments and anything of historic value? it also heavily use in the up keep of many bridges? i know hampshire county council had a unit? because during the design phase of the replacement holmsley bridge. they model the site before had to get the measurements? even it it was a simple lazer reading at given points? ive heard of drones being able to this task? which means that with a few quick passes you have all the data set you need? lazer scan technologies being even used to detect flaws in the structure and recommend actions? I've even heard of radar being used? because its able to generate a 3d model. with it even being able to show material thickness? not quite at scan pyramids level but still fairly handy to know? it generally exploits the penetration depths of certain wavelengths? there was talk of it when i was in college? so the scanning tech has been about some time has been bout some time? i dont know if you might be able to find what is required on Archie maps? which is lidar data base? it was good at pointing out hidden feature in the landscape? it showed several thing in my area? potential site of interest archaeology wise. had a bit of a barney over it with remote sensing? because i swore i could see where a roman temple complex? in bisterne manor? there was also what also looked like a motte and baily castle from near Colehill in Wimborne? and even the foundation trenches to the priory on st catharines hill? on what looked like an odd axis? it might of even had an apse? folk law in my area goes into that one? and attributes it the the Christ man himself for why the priory didn't end up on a hill overlooking two valleys? still it does sit on the fault line? so that a quest some other might like to ask? why churches and fault lines go hand in hand? colonge cathedral so different?  i digress? remote scanning is an awesome technology! definitely handy if awes need to dip its toe? 

i would guess that there would be a long term bonus to taking the bridge approach? one being lower maintenance costs on modular component due to a longer life span?
i know there is alot of grumbling over turbine towers being only fit for x number of years? 20 - 30 year at best? before structural fatigue set in?  as those thing are radiculiosly expensive to begin with? you want something that going to last longer? and use fewest materials? my closest viaduct not in use is the borne valley road viaduct? formally served Bournemouth west before beeching cuts? it can be a site for urban explores to go have a poke at? ive been there when the odd gust would either take you of your feet? or cause you to swerve on a bike? the wind runs right up the valley most days? 
![image|690x458](upload://2pgVCaDHqLOvK5nJC9BGGo5XTbI.jpeg)
fairly sure there room for improvement? also give people the opportunity to survey structure like this? effect repair where required? many of the arches are of quite a span? as they do cross a local road? the a few feet tall? if i recall correct the the tallest spans about 130 foot? there 10 spans to get across the valley there are plenty like this up and down the county? ours would only possibly take a few turbines? sure to near by housing? this is just an example? you do have more remote ones? which wouldnt make some shudder at the thought of a retrofit? i am disapointed with wikipeadia as it seams to be missing a few of the viducts and bridges? so dont take the next like as gospel? [List of railway bridges and viaducts in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_railway_bridges_and_viaducts_in_the_United_Kingdom) it does kindly mention the one that were demolished? 
if this was a few year back i might be suggesting old mill chimneys? who don't love an old steeplejack?  but as many of the old mill chimney met with an un-ceremonial end? they prehaps not best for AWES applications? though seeing one of rod turbines on top would have been quite something? just another idea in the cooking pot to consider?  i have see suggestion for incorporated turbines between sky scrapers? considering that some street make a made made valleys? it a problem in some cites. there have been reports of people being injured after being swept off their feet? it does get a mention on the incredible engineering blunders fixed?  plenty of design consideration? 

even if you were to clad the inside of the arches with a custom style areomine? with a turbine house in a set of arches? your may still face an issue with how do you keep boot firmly planted on the ground? at the same time of generating electricity? it one i have thought a co flow design would work rather well? expanding on the co flow shelf idea i had? multi vector strategy?  could work well?  it not just rail bridges you have many type that could be useful for suspended awes? even something like rotor wing to move through the vortices?  created under the super structure? might also do the job? when i was toying 3d print? it had occurred to me then how easy it would to use wind shear to power a turbine? plenty of option should that road be travelled? 
@AndreasEisele @Windy_Skies @tallakt @gordon_sp @batlabat @Rodread @PierreB @dougselsam

then its all about companies who maybe able to assist in creating the final product? for me that an all hand on deck? then let see where this goes?

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-05-05 21:21:57 UTC | #811

![image|500x500](upload://yls308J7BWczz1t9VXvXASspHIr.jpeg)
i know this is something many here would be interested in? there plenty of rivers this can happen in? they would have to be away form main navigations?  but as you love the kite that doo this? with a turbine at it heart it something that can work in both mediums. if you connect in series you can up the anti with green tech? some where where you have a wide river and high flow? you could have one in every river? this examples from Sabogawa River in japan. i see the potential of arrays like this? this would be something like a kite barrage?  or kite train? the bonus it would be cheep and low impact. it would fit in with suspend types of AWES.
https://forum.awesystems.info/t/slow-chat/1610/800?u=freeflying

i can imaging the grand canyon crisscrossed by these. both airborne and submerged types? if  you wanted simply beautiful? then tis is one way to go? plus if the mouth is wide open? held open with some like gravity potential generator like I've have postulated using? everything's gravy lads!  could look something like this? but really down do every individual creator/maker?
![image|206x206](upload://tw6kwwsOjlEBZuwV8OAaZwioogu.png)
retail for these I would suspect to be in the region of £500 per unit? if you have 1000s thats a lot of energy? 

https://forum.awesystems.info/t/generator-using-gravitational-potential-kinetic-energy-with-falling-mass-of-ball-bearings-or-magnetic-fluid/1799?u=freeflying

bonus is less damage with birds/fish and all other wild life. if you want amazing? this would be one way to go? it might also work for tidal power? as it self orienting with the flow. it would be less likely to become damaged by debris?  if that the case? then it could see wide spread roll out? instead of months development you talk 5 min of plug and play then your way.

this might also interest local authorities?  because of adaptability of the design and potential for upgrade and refits? all depending demands of the system? it can be completely recycled or reused in another location. which ad to economic longevity. if you spend £500 it last 100 years? £50 a year is good economy per unit. there is plenty of room for manufactures to get involved. i know Donald trump was caught saying he hates the current turbines. when asked about king Charles 3rd eco agenda before tomorrow's coronation. if AWES could get someone trump on side? the would be huge? usually if it make sense to him? then it will make sense to more business types? I'm not an huge estimator. but my reckoning suggest there a billion dollar market to the right customers? so there my take, any wishes to chime in, please do?

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-05-06 20:59:23 UTC | #812

[Calling Bullshit in the Age of Big Data](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPnZfvKID1Sje5jWxt-4CSZD7bUI4gSPS)

This Carl Sagan essay was mentioned in lecture 2.1:
https://fermatslibrary.com/s/the-fine-art-of-baloney-detection

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-05-06 21:01:04 UTC | #813

From https://www.mindmeister.com/132484153/awe-map?fullscreen=1 at the bottom of the page under *auto-zenith*:

[quote]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNnAvqcQ-7I


What makes a kite auto-zenith? For those that don't know, auto-zenith is a quality that makes a kite automaticly return to zenith(12:00) without user input. Peter lynn Twinskins are the only kites that do this. There are 2 main reasons why they do this.

The most prominent cause is the spars in the wing tips. When the kite drifts to one side, gravity pulls the spar downward. This increases the angle of attack in the upper wing tip and decreases the angle or attack in the lower wingtip. The angle of attack change causes the upper wing tip to have more lift than the lower wing tip, lifting the kite back to zenith. It also causes the upper wing tip to have more drag than the lower which turns the kite upwards toward zenith.

The second prominent effect is the distribution of canopy. When the kite veers off to one side, there is always more canopy pulling upwards than downwards. This returns the kite to zenith from to balance the forces. This also causes stability in arcs and other power kites. The downward curve of the wing tips causes more of the lift to pull the kite upwards, counteracting the force of gravity on the kite, adding stability.

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthread.php?tid=25191


"The auto-zenith state becomes progressively unstable as wind velocity rises and/or the spread ratio between the wingspan and barspan increases. Dutch-Roll oscillation grows from infinitesmal to large figure-of-eight sweep patterns. I had experienced this tuning parameter many times, but yesterday, in gale-force winds, flying a NTK 1.2 foil on a small bar, I dared to just close my eyes and hold the bar tight in a fixed position. To my amazement, the kite flew about 5 minutes in wild sweeping eights, but never crashed. Had it crashed, the foil would have tended to self- re-launch, as has been observed countless times.

Either flygen or groundgen PTOs can be applied. The "crosswind kite" performance can be enhanced by a valved parafoil, since the open-celled foil occasionally collapsed in violent turbulence (yet always recovered before crashing, in the session). The ratio of wingspan to barspan was fixed at 4-to-1, but would be adjusted to large changes in wind velocity." Dave Santos

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/airbornewindenergy/conversations/messages/19492


[/quote]

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-05-08 17:23:48 UTC | #814

fyi it popped in to the feed today. curious i took a gander at it? 
https://youtu.be/NeOrUIFhVR8
looks there a few thing that might pan out here?
he says 80% efficient due to how much energy is transferred to fly wheel? 
i reckon you cold get more? maybe as high as 95% as is nearly a Francis turbine for wind.

i leave this here,so people can make their minds up?

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-05-09 12:57:49 UTC | #816

if you care about those sort of thing? you have to remember not everyone does as he does. he not doing it to be smart or clever. he doing to have a bit of technical fun. production and design channel it ok? it not top brass sure. get you bet it what are you after? maybe i want a broad scope? that dont make me stupid? maybe unaware? not stupid. may not be the greatest of the best? but he's making things. he does take a critical view and admits he can be wildly off an times. even says try for yourselves. why is he wrong? if wind energy is all about how efficient you can covert airflow in to work? i mention a while back something about the mass of the rotor need to proportionate to the mass.? volume of airflow. 
i believe it was you who mentioned that air flow don't stop when it hit buildings?  so it how to manage the flow? he showing one example? i don't take everything as gospel. if it genuine that cool?  if you don't stop the wind from moving then you have high efficiencies? does it beat the betz limit? ok @Windy_Skies why will any one know less? if your not try to gain much? just watch some guy make thing what the issue? your more than welcome to prove him wrong? he open sourcing this so you can go to his tinkercad and print his files? should you want to? why is he wrong? he know ther are thing out there he need know more about. that why he running open source for inputs? you welcome to point him the way if you know any better?  so is he wrong this time?

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-05-09 14:08:07 UTC | #817

[quote="Freeflying, post:816, topic:1610"]
why is he wrong?
[/quote]

He's not breaking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz's_law. He has no regard for the truth, that makes him a [bullshitter](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPnZfvKID1Sje5jWxt-4CSZD7bUI4gSPS) and with that the exact wrong kind of person to follow if you want to learn stuff. He's filling your head with gobbledygook.

If you have a result like that you don't go *that's interesting, anyway...*, which he does often the times I managed to suffer through part of another video of his, you go *hmm, where did I make a mistake...*

The video could have been a nice intro on how to better measure wind turbine output and his struggles to get more accurate results, from which we could have learned something. Instead we got this. Don't waste your time with rubbish when there is so much content available that isn't rubbish, again, for the love of fuck.

Any comment of yours that includes a link to his videos gets an automatic down vote from me.

-------------------------

tallakt | 2023-05-09 15:35:17 UTC | #818

[quote="Freeflying, post:816, topic:1610"]
why is he wrong?
[/quote]

You lost me at «Betz beater». Ok if you just want to waste time, many things are as good as any other to get fired up about to have some fun building things. 

But, if you like me are concerned with actually learning how to produce energy from the wind in a sensible manner (not just for fun, though it is ok to have fun being serious)… then just start investigating and eventually you will know that if someone claims «Betz beater» it is probably bot worth your attention. 

@Windy_Skies gave you some sound advice here @Freeflying . Probably though, because I never read how he was planning to beat the Betz limit

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-05-15 11:30:39 UTC | #819

it just thought but its it possible to have something like this VTOL, and be an improvement on Makani? have anyone here considered wireless transmission to ground station?  I've seen reference to drone used here? i wonder if it possible to have a drone completely untethered?  but beaming electricity back to a ground station? wardencliff was telsa attempt of wireless transmission, i doubt he would of seen a drone take up the challenge? fly by wire is quite common if advance aviation projects. ive never heard of directed energy transfer being use in AWES it also out get round the tethers issue?  if it has take off capacity? and is using gravity to generate the need power like some gliders do?  i reckon you might have something? easy deployment and recovery. they can also have pre set landing zone.  so getting round some regulations? but getting planning board on board will be challenging? might help if defence contractors have their say?  Makani was good but didn't have freedom of movement.

[Wireless power transfer - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_power_transfer)
how close would you need to be for this to work effectively?

-------------------------

tallakt | 2023-05-15 11:30:39 UTC | #820

I think if you solve the conductive wire by using wireless (laser being my first choice) there are still other issues to be solved with the Makani approach. So maybe removing the cable is not really the next step? I would expect just making the nominal power in low winds was something you would solve before looking at wireless transmission…

I dont think though that wireless transmission is feasible though. In that case probably in the opposite direction, a laser pointing from ground to kite. Electric wireless seems to be very depending on distance between coils which should be close to zero…

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-05-15 11:30:39 UTC | #821

wireless in itself is way above me it serious kit ive yet to play with. it was merely thought experiment on my part to see if there was a possible use?  it also depend highly to style of transmission to ground stations?  would take better brain than me to get that functional? compact tesla coil with tracking?  but then you might get jest of death rays? swings and roundabouts. good to hear you thoughts @tallakt. i might agree a laser could do the job? though will have to wait and see? if anyone else has thoughts please do join in?

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-05-18 10:49:49 UTC | #822

i had a wild idea on re-entry vehicles this morning? i wonder if it could cross over with AWES?  I'm aware of autonomous rockets use to so supply the international space station. so light bulb went off saying is it possible to generate from re-entry? this happen after thinking golf ball dimple could slow re entry by redirecting the gasses to slow the vehicle down. a question i just asked NASA about you know those brain are up their in the field. I previously mentioned as a possible launch and repeat AWES? sort of a jumping jacks style AWES
![image|480x360](upload://9qwGHWcLRB4UC9DavzOJKOu4LkR.jpeg)
im not use how feasible the idea is? any thoughts?

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-05-18 12:14:57 UTC | #823

[quote="Freeflying, post:822, topic:1610"]
im not use how feasible the idea is? any thoughts?
[/quote]

Ideas like these are off-topic for this forum.

Try making a kite or an rc plane and seeing how you can use it to pull on a string to turn a generator. Questions and ideas about that would be an example of what this forum is for.

If you are interested in development in rocket landings, you can do some reading here for example: 
https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/13ce9kc/starship_development_thread_45/

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-05-24 08:52:00 UTC | #824

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/13qcajf/criticize_my_idea_for_an_alternative_to_roads/

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-05-24 08:59:10 UTC | #825

https://www.jpost.com/environment-and-climate-change/article-744003

### More losers than winners: investigating Anthropocene defaunation through the diversity of population trends https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/brv.12974

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-05-29 18:56:28 UTC | #826

https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/13uxpdo/ukraine_sees_new_virtue_in_wind_power_its_harder/

[quote]
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/29/world/europe/ukraine-russia-wind-power.html

ODESA, Ukraine — The giants catch the wind with their huge arms, helping to keep the lights on in Ukraine — newly built windmills on plains along the Black Sea.

In 15 months of war, Russia has launched countless missiles and exploding drones at power plants, hydroelectric dams and substations, trying to black out as much of Ukraine as it can, as often as it can, in its campaign to pound the country into submission. The new Tyligulska wind farm stands only a few dozen miles from Russian artillery, but Ukrainians say it has a crucial advantage over most of the country’s grid.

A single, well-placed missile can damage a power plant severely enough to take it out of action, but Ukrainian officials say that doing the same to a set of windmills, each one hundreds of feet apart from any other, would require dozens of missiles. A wind farm can be temporarily disabled by striking a transformer substation or transmission lines, but these are much easier to repair than power plants.

“It is our response to Russians,” said Maksym Timchenko, the chief executive of DTEK Group, the company that built the turbines, in the southern Mykolaiv region, the first phase of what is planned as Eastern Europe’s largest wind farm. “It is the most profitable and, as we know now, most secure form of energy.”

Ukraine has had laws in place since 2014 to promote the transition to renewable energy, both to lower dependence on Russian energy imports and because it was profitable. But that transition still has a long way to go, and the war makes its prospects — like everything else about Ukraine’s future — murky.

In 2020, 12 percent of Ukraine’s electricity came from renewable sources, barely half the percentage for the European Union. Plans for the Tyligulska project call for 85 turbines producing up to 500 megawatts of electricity, enough for 500,000 apartments — an impressive output for a wind farm, but less than 1 percent of the country’s prewar generating capacity.

After the Kremlin began its full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, the need for new power sources became acute. Russia has bombarded Ukraine’s power plants and cut off delivery of the natural gas that fueled some of them.

Russian occupation forces have seized a large part of the country’s power supply, ensuring that its output does not reach territory still held by Ukraine. They hold the single largest generator, the 5,700-megawatt Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant, which has been damaged repeatedly in fighting and has stopped transmitting energy to the grid. They also control 90 percent of Ukraine’s renewable energy plants, which are concentrated in the southeast.

The postwar recovery plans Ukraine has presented to the European Union — which it hopes to join — and other supporters includes a major new commitment to clean energy.

“The war speeded us up,” said Hanna Zamazeeva, the head of the Ukrainian government’s energy efficiency agency, which supported the construction of the wind farm.

But energy and economic analysts say much of the hoped-for green transition will have to wait until after reconstruction begins and foreign investment returns, and could depend on Ukrainian success on the battlefield. “Developing renewables, particularly wind and solar, depends on Ukraine successfully recapturing these territories” now held by Russia, the Center for Strategic and International Studies reported in December. “The level of destruction across these regions could impede any new investment or development, as enabling infrastructure such as roads and grid networks may need to be rebuilt. Current installations may also have been damaged.”

Southern Ukraine’s potential for wind power was clear at the project’s opening ceremony this month when hot, dry air gusted through a wheat field dotted with huge turbines. Amid snack-covered tables, their linens flapping in the wind, the gathered diplomats and journalists had to turn their backs to the blowing dust.

The three-bladed turbines at Tyligulska, made by the Danish company Vestas, are huge, carving circles in the air more than 500 feet in diameter. Each windmill weighs about 800 tons.

The first turbine was built in February 2022, the month the invasion began, and then DTEK froze construction. But in August, Evheniy Moroz, the company’s site manager, received a call from his director, who asked if they could resume work without international contractors, who had all evacuated, taking their heavy equipment with them. “I started calling the guys I worked with to find out where they are, what contractors are still operating, and whether there are any cranes able to lift 100 tons still in Ukraine,” Mr. Moroz said.

He found just one, and it needed renovation, but this crane was the only hope. The builders modified the crane for the job and started calling it their “little dragon.” With it, construction restarted.

Builders worked in open fields about 60 miles from the front lines, hiding in a bunker when air-raid sirens sounded. Missiles fired from Russian ships in the Black Sea roared overhead but did not target the site. Cruise missiles flew lower than the turbines, trying to evade radar detection by Ukrainian air defenses.

They are a modest step toward energy security and a green transition, but the new windmills mean something more immediate for Ukraine, said Vitaliy Kim, the governor of the Mykolaiv region.

“The construction of this wind power plant is a sort of a signal that it is possible to build during the war,” he said. “Such projects have to exist for the independence of our country.”



[/quote]

-------------------------

tallakt | 2023-05-29 21:29:20 UTC | #827

Seems like if anyone could deliver today, Ukraine might build AWE. Reason; even lower materials cost and easier to install, on paper

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-05-30 10:31:48 UTC | #828

https://www.reddit.com/r/RenewableEnergy/comments/13vjsrl/cofounder_of_eroei_studies_streamlines_eroei/

[quote]

Hi all,

I love how positive Professor David Murphy is about renewable EROEI - especially given he used to work with Charles Hall who has tended to be pessimistic about non-fossil fuel EROEI.

Either read the few paragraphs below, the full article at the link above, or listen to an interview [with Professor Murphy here](https://xenetwork.org/ets/episodes/episode-184-eroi-of-re/).

---

“Solar photovoltaics produce electricity straight away and therefore can’t be fundamentally compared to gas at the point of extraction until we look at what happens when gas is converted to electricity,” Prof Murphy told Byline Times. “As a result, some researchers were adding huge costs to solar and wind which they weren’t including in fossil fuels.”

His team conducted a ‘meta-analysis’ – a study of studies looking at findings across the scientific literature – and then revisited EROI measures to develop more accurate calculations focusing on a ‘point of use’ based on an engineering perspective using life-cycle analysis.

Previous EROI studies also often suffered due to poor data sources. The new research uses rigorous data from the ECOINVENT database which is widely recognised as the most detailed, transparent and vetted source for industrial life-cycle data on energy, resources, materials and beyond.

The new study confirmed that fossil fuels invariably display low and declining EROI values. Finding that no liquid fuel products from conventional oil have an EROI above 10, the study concluded that an average estimate for the EROI of oil today is around 4.2.

“All other estimates for bioethanol, biodiesel, and petrol from oil sands have harmonised EROIs below 5,” it said.

But it’s a different ballgame for renewable energy.

Renewables Rise Above Fossil Fuels

The new study concludes that wind and solar panels “have EROIs at or above 10” – which means that “greater than 90% of the energy produced by these technologies is delivered to society as net energy”.

This also means that renewables have progressed from merely being ‘cost-competitive’ with fossil fuels to fully out-competing them by generating more than double the net energy. Oil, in other words, is now generating less than half the net energy of solar and wind power.

Importantly, the study also found that incorporating battery storage into the analysis does not significantly decrease the overall EROI of a solar or wind system.

“Understanding EROI can give investors a way to make sense of which technologies are worth supporting,” said Prof Murphy. “What’s going to change for oil, gas and coal, where we’ve used up most of the best stuff?

https://bylinetimes.com/2022/08/31/solar-and-wind-power-now-deliver-more-than-double-the-energy-produced-by-oil-new-study-finds/

[/quote]

-------------------------

AndreasEisele | 2023-05-30 11:55:09 UTC | #829

[quote="tallakt, post:827, topic:1610, full:true"]
Seems like if anyone could deliver today, Ukraine might build AWE. Reason; even lower materials cost and easier to install, on paper
[/quote]

If it is true what they publish on their Website, SkySails Power should be able to deliver.
They started [series production](https://skysails-power.com/series-production-of-awes-starts/) of systems a while ago  and have an  [operational system in Mauritius](https://skysails-power.com/revolutionary-airborne-wind-energy-system-in-operation-in-the-republic-of-mauritius/)
Mobile ground stations should be less vulnerable (easier to hide or confuse the enemy with decoys) than conventional wind towers, which might be an important advantage in the current situation.
So all that seems to be missing is a bunch of money and perhaps a decision on a political level...

-------------------------

dougselsam | 2023-05-30 15:56:01 UTC | #830

I would be cautious placing too much faith in statements of "operational" systems.  The idea is to keep some hope with investors etc.  Try to find any evidence or indication of actual regular operation.  Demos and prototypes are good, but not necessarily reliable for daily production.  Output claims can be impressive, but do they represent what one would expect in daily operation?  When demo projects are abandoned, shut down, mothballed, placed on hold, or just not run very often, if at all, there is usually no big press-release.  :)

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-05-30 20:37:37 UTC | #831

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur%E2%80%93iodine_cycle

[quote]
https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/r8s0jf/scientists_at_australias_monash_university_claim/hn945k9/

Ah, sorry about that, I could have worded this more clearly.

I was talking about making storable fuels for energy capture at that point. You see, electrolysis makes hydrogen, which is great, but hydrogen makes for a very low density fuel which is very hard to store for long periods of time. It tends to escape containers and many materials can't stay in contact with hydrogen long term without becoming embrittled through the formation of metal hydrides. So, it would be advantageous to make more easily stored and handled fuels if we plan on using hydrogen from electrolysis as an energy storage mechanism. The two most often considered fuels are methane and ammonia (ammonia can burn inside any engine with a high enough compression ratio). Now, technically methane actually stores more energy per molecule and per kilogram than ammonia, so it seems better on paper. However, the process that makes methane from water and CO2 actually loses half the hydrogen you input into making two water molecules. This is because the sabatier process reduces CO2 to CH4 and H2O by just shoving in an abundance of hydrogen and using a catalyst to react everything. This loss of hydrogen is bad, because I means you at minimum lose 50% of the hydrogen you produce into just making water again. **Meanwhile the haber-bosch process is very similar, except the nitrogen gas we add into the chamber has no associated oxygen, so *all* of the hydrogen we make goes into making ammonia. Therefore, for an equivalent mass of generated hydrogen, we can make way more ammonia than methane.** This ammonia is easily stored and doesn't corrode or attack materials, and has enough energy that it can be pretty readily used for internal combustion engines and even jet aircraft.

I hope that explains it a bit better. Both the sabatier process and the haber-bosch process rely on hydrogen produced with clean energy in order to be clean. Producing ammonia is the most efficient in terms of hydrogen utilization but has slightly less powerful fuel: producing methane via the sabatier process is much more expensive in terms of hydrogen use per unit energy contained in the fuel product, but for super high performance applications such as rocket engines the extra energy density is worth it. In all cases, making hydrogen from water instead of fossil fuels is the key technology that needs to be developed.

[/quote]

[quote]
https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/r8s0jf/scientists_at_australias_monash_university_claim/hn8hvww/
Yes, and this is a good thing. For example there's a high temperature reaction cycle using sulfuric acid that splits apart water into hydrogen and oxygen products without requiring electricity, which means a cheap source of high temperature working fluid can let us generate a huge amount of hydrogen reliably. There are some chemistry challenges with working with high temperature sulfuric acid and the other chemicals involved but they are not impossible challenges. I want to point out however that cheap solar power can also be used to do the things you mentioned, albeit in different processes due to the difference in the energy supply (electricity versus heat). In fact using cheap excess electricity during peak production to make chemicals which can store that energy for later use may be the solution to the problem of variability in renewable energy supply. For this purpose the haber-bosch process would likely be better than the sabatier process because both rely on hydrogen production from electrolysis but the production of ammonia makes no water byproduct, which means it's twice as effective as making fuel (ammonia) per unit hydrogen produced, and therefore per unit energy used, before considering the efficiency of the rest of the processes.


>Isn’t the production of sulfuric acid problematical from an ecological perspective?



[quote]
[–]Norose 27 points 1 year ago 

The sulfuric acid never leaves the cycle. It acts more like a reusable catalyst, along with iodine. Basically, water goes in, reacts with high temperature sulfur and iodine compounds, the water is split apart, the resulting new sulfur and iodine compounds move to another vessel where they are dissociated to free the hydrogen and oxygen as separate gasses, which reforms the original sulfur and iodine compounds that are fed back into the water chamber to react again. The only things this cycle consumes are water and heat energy, which is why it's so interesting when considered alongside high temperature heat generation technologies.

Just to reiterate, zero sulfuric acid is ever emitted from the process. You basically have a building where clean water is pumped in, heat is supplied, and hydrogen and oxygen come out.
[/quote]
[/quote]


[quote]
https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/r8s0jf/scientists_at_australias_monash_university_claim/hn8synh/
It's already cheap enough. Hydrogen production would be done using excess solar, when the grid isn't drawing enough to keep up to the energy generated by large arrays on sunnier than average days. Right now, the energy generated during those times is actually better than free, utilities will PAY other industries to draw additional capacity, because giving away that power without having to open any relays to reduce production saves a large amount of costs associated with relay erosion over time. Of course dedicated hydrogen production power arrays are perfectly possible too. The thing about electrolysis is that it's very easily engineered to be grid-following, meaning it only draws whatever the grid can supply at that time, because it doesn't require any large equipment startup and warmup process. It's run by switching on electrical current to electrodes immersed in water, and having an air pump collect the resulting gasses for storage. A typical hydrogen plant could have 100,000 one-kilowatt electrolysis cells, all set up so that each cell can be switched on and off independently, which means you have very good stepwise power draw control. You can even run banks of cells on duty cycles so that after a period of however may months they can be switched off and locked out in modules for maintenance and repair. This requires development but it's not impossible or even difficult. The problem is that right now there is huge global inertia to overcome in terms of how most of us get our energy. For this reason I think the way to start off growing this technology is to focus on making ammonia and other energy intensive chemical products that can be sold for profit. North African nations as well as other desert nations like Chile and those in the middle east could actually be significant pioneers in this way, since they have the most reliable access to solar power and not a huge amount of other industrial products to sell overseas.
[/quote]

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-05-30 20:05:16 UTC | #832

[quote="dougselsam, post:830, topic:1610"]
Output claims can be impressive, but do they represent what one would expect in daily operation?
[/quote]

A demonstration wind park should have a live stream of the kites flying, and displaying:

Power being generated now: ___
Average power generated over last 7 days: ___
Capacity factor: ___
Days since last outage: ___
And so on: ___

That's one milestone that should build trust and interest. Then if someone wanted to buy a system, independent reviews of the system from a user's perspective, and pricing and longevity and service agreements that makes sense, would make sense.

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-05-31 16:21:53 UTC | #833

ChatGPT:

[quote]
**Only MW scale HAWTs are an option, but I am trying to choose between different OEMs.**

Choosing the right original equipment manufacturer (OEM) for your MW-scale horizontal axis wind turbines (HAWTs) is an important decision as it can impact the performance, reliability, and long-term maintenance of your wind park. Here are some considerations to help you evaluate and compare different OEMs:

1. Experience and Track Record:
  * Look for OEMs with a proven track record and experience in the wind energy industry.
  * Consider the number of installations, their performance, and the duration of their presence in the market.
  * Research the OEMs' reputation for delivering quality turbines and providing reliable after-sales support.
2. Performance and Efficiency:
  * Evaluate the power output and efficiency of the turbines offered by different OEMs.
  * Compare the turbines' capacity factors, which indicate the percentage of their rated capacity that is actually achieved.
  * Consider the OEMs' efforts in improving turbine design, maximizing energy capture, and reducing downtime for maintenance.
3. Technology and Innovation:
  * Assess the technological advancements and innovations offered by each OEM.
  * Look for features like advanced control systems, aerodynamic enhancements, and noise reduction measures.
  * Consider if the OEMs are investing in research and development to improve their turbine technology.
4. Service and Maintenance:
  * Evaluate the OEMs' service and maintenance offerings.
  * Assess their response times, availability of spare parts, and overall support.
  * Consider the OEMs' warranties, maintenance contracts, and the reputation of their service teams.
5. Financial Stability:
  * Assess the financial stability and long-term viability of the OEMs.
  * Consider their financial reports, market presence, and their ability to honor warranties and support ongoing operations.
6. Customer References:
  * Seek references from existing wind park owners who have experience with the OEMs you are considering.
  * Contact other wind park operators to gather feedback on turbine performance, support, and overall satisfaction.
7. Cost and Contractual Terms:
  * Compare the upfront costs, pricing structures, and contract terms offered by different OEMs.
  * Evaluate the overall value proposition considering factors like turbine performance, support, and long-term costs.

Ultimately, selecting the right OEM involves a thorough evaluation of their reputation, turbine performance, technological advancements, service and maintenance capabilities, financial stability, and the overall value they offer for your specific project requirements. Conducting a detailed tender process, including requesting proposals and engaging in discussions with multiple OEMs, can help you make an informed decision based on your project's needs.
[/quote]

[quote]

**Please expand on 7.**

Certainly! When considering the cost and contractual terms offered by different original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) for your MW-scale horizontal axis wind turbines (HAWTs), here are some key factors to consider:

1. Upfront Costs:
  * Compare the initial capital costs of the turbines offered by different OEMs.
  * Take into account the cost per megawatt (MW) of installed capacity.
  * Evaluate if any additional costs are associated with site preparation, foundation construction, or transportation.
2. Pricing Structures:
  * Understand the pricing structures provided by the OEMs.
  * Some OEMs may offer fixed pricing per turbine or per MW, while others may offer tiered pricing based on the number of turbines ordered or the total capacity of the wind park.
  * Consider if there are any volume discounts available for larger orders.
3. Contractual Terms:
  * Review the contractual terms and conditions offered by the OEMs.
  * Pay attention to important aspects such as warranties, performance guarantees, and penalties for non-compliance.
  * Understand the scope of the contract and ensure that it covers critical components, software, and maintenance services.
4. Warranty:
  * Assess the warranty terms offered by the OEMs.
  * Evaluate the duration and coverage of warranties for major components like the rotor, gearbox, generator, and control systems.
  * Understand the OEMs' processes for warranty claims and their responsiveness in resolving issues.
5. Maintenance and Service Agreements:
  * Consider the availability and cost of maintenance and service agreements.
  * Evaluate the OEMs' offerings for routine maintenance, inspections, and repairs.
  * Understand the terms of the service agreements, including response times, spare parts availability, and the cost structure for ongoing maintenance and support.
6. Performance Guarantees:
  * Evaluate the performance guarantees provided by the OEMs.
  * Understand the expected energy production and availability guarantees.
  * Assess the penalties or compensation mechanisms in case the turbines underperform.
7. Financing Options:
  * Inquire about any financing options or partnerships that the OEMs may offer.
  * Some OEMs may have relationships with financial institutions or leasing companies that can provide attractive financing arrangements.
  * Consider the availability of government incentives or support programs that the OEMs can assist you with.
8. Payment Terms:
  * Review the payment terms proposed by the OEMs.
  * Understand the payment milestones, including down payments, progress payments, and the final payment upon installation and commissioning.
  * Consider the OEMs' flexibility in payment terms, such as installment options or payment schedules tailored to your project's cash flow.

It's crucial to thoroughly review and compare the cost and contractual terms offered by different OEMs, ensuring they align with your project's budget, risk tolerance, and long-term financial goals. Consult with legal and financial experts to help you analyze and negotiate the contractual terms to secure the best overall value for your wind park.
[/quote]

[quote]
**Please now answer from the perspective on a new OEM selling a new wind turbine for my wind park. How can they differentiate themselves from the competition?**



As a new original equipment manufacturer (OEM) entering the wind energy market, differentiating yourself from established competitors is essential. Here are some strategies that a new OEM can employ to stand out and differentiate their wind turbine offerings:

1. Technological Innovation:
  * Focus on developing and incorporating cutting-edge technologies into your wind turbines.
  * Highlight features that improve energy capture, increase efficiency, and enhance overall performance.
  * Emphasize advancements in control systems, aerodynamics, materials, or novel designs that set your turbines apart.
2. Performance and Efficiency:
  * Conduct thorough testing and optimization to ensure that your turbines deliver high performance and competitive efficiency.
  * Provide data-driven evidence of superior energy production, capacity factors, and reliability.
  * Highlight any certifications or independent validations that showcase the performance and quality of your turbines.
3. Cost-Effectiveness:
  * Offer competitive pricing and cost structures that provide value to customers.
  * Focus on efficient manufacturing processes, supply chain management, and economies of scale to keep costs in check.
  * Demonstrate how your turbines can generate attractive returns on investment for wind park developers.
4. Customization and Flexibility:
  * Offer customizable turbine solutions to meet the specific needs and constraints of different wind park projects.
  * Provide options for different rotor sizes, tower heights, or other parameters to optimize energy production based on site-specific conditions.
  * Showcase your ability to adapt and tailor your turbines to diverse geographical, environmental, and regulatory requirements.
5. Customer Support and Service:
  * Prioritize excellent customer support and after-sales service.
  * Demonstrate a responsive and reliable technical support team that can address any issues promptly.
  * Highlight comprehensive maintenance and service agreements that ensure optimal turbine performance throughout their lifespan.
6. Sustainability and Environmental Responsibility:
  * Emphasize your commitment to sustainability and reducing the environmental impact of your turbines.
  * Showcase features such as advanced noise reduction measures, bird-friendly designs, or innovative recycling and decommissioning processes.
  * Communicate your efforts in minimizing the carbon footprint of your manufacturing and operational processes.
7. Partnerships and Collaborations:
  * Forge strategic partnerships with key industry players, research institutions, or renewable energy organizations.
  * Collaborate on research and development projects to enhance your technological capabilities and credibility.
  * Leverage partnerships to access wider distribution networks or tap into new markets.
8. Transparent Communication and Trust:
  * Build trust and credibility by transparently communicating the performance, capabilities, and limitations of your turbines.
  * Provide detailed technical specifications, performance data, and case studies to support your claims.
  * Foster open and honest communication with potential customers, addressing their concerns and providing accurate information.

Differentiating a new OEM in the wind energy market requires a combination of technological innovation, competitive pricing, exceptional customer support, sustainability initiatives, strategic partnerships, and effective communication. By showcasing these strengths, a new OEM can establish a unique value proposition and position themselves as a trusted and competitive player in the industry.

[/quote]

[quote]
**Please expand on 2.**

ChatGPT

Certainly! When it comes to differentiating a new original equipment manufacturer (OEM) in the wind energy market, focusing on performance and efficiency is crucial. Here are some key aspects to consider:

1. Rigorous Testing and Optimization:
  * Conduct extensive testing and optimization of your wind turbines to ensure they deliver high performance and efficiency.
  * Utilize advanced simulation tools and wind tunnel testing to refine aerodynamic design and maximize energy capture.
  * Implement data-driven approaches to continuously improve turbine performance and reduce losses.
2. Enhanced Energy Production:
  * Emphasize how your turbines can achieve higher energy production compared to competitors.
  * Highlight innovative rotor designs, optimized blade profiles, or unique control algorithms that enhance energy capture.
  * Provide data and performance calculations to demonstrate the increased energy yield of your turbines in various wind conditions.
3. High Capacity Factors:
  * Capacity factor represents the actual energy output of a turbine relative to its maximum potential. Aim for a high capacity factor to showcase your turbines' efficiency.
  * Conduct thorough analyses of wind patterns and site-specific conditions to optimize turbine placement and maximize capacity factor.
  * Share case studies or real-world examples where your turbines have achieved notable capacity factors.
4. Reliability and Availability:
  * Ensure that your turbines are designed and manufactured with a strong emphasis on reliability.
  * Employ robust components and materials that withstand harsh environmental conditions and minimize downtime.
  * Communicate high availability rates, indicating that your turbines are operational and generating power consistently.
5. Independent Certifications and Validations:
  * Seek independent certifications and validations to support your claims of performance and efficiency.
  * Collaborate with recognized certification bodies to assess and verify the performance of your turbines.
  * Highlight any industry-recognized certifications or awards that demonstrate the quality and efficiency of your turbines.
6. Real-Time Monitoring and Optimization:
  * Offer advanced monitoring and control systems that provide real-time data on turbine performance and enable proactive maintenance.
  * Showcase your ability to remotely monitor turbines, detect anomalies, and optimize performance through software algorithms.
  * Highlight how your monitoring and optimization capabilities lead to increased energy production and reduced maintenance costs.
7. Life Cycle Assessment:
  * Conduct a comprehensive life cycle assessment (LCA) to evaluate the environmental impact of your turbines.
  * Highlight any initiatives taken to reduce the embodied carbon in the manufacturing process.
  * Showcase the overall sustainability and eco-friendliness of your turbines, including end-of-life considerations and recycling efforts.
8. Long-Term Performance Guarantees:
  * Provide strong performance guarantees to instill confidence in potential customers.
  * Offer guarantees on energy production, capacity factor, or turbine availability.
  * Communicate how you are willing to stand behind the performance and efficiency of your turbines.

By focusing on the performance and efficiency of your wind turbines and effectively communicating these advantages to potential customers, you can differentiate your new OEM from competitors. Ensuring reliable, high-energy production, and providing independent certifications or validations will bolster trust and credibility in your brand.
[/quote]

[quote]
**Please expand on 4. This is a weak point for this wind turbine. What can be done to address the concern over reliability, or how can the effect of the lower reliability me mitigated?**


If reliability is a weak point for a wind turbine, there are several approaches you can take to address the concern or mitigate its effects:

1. Robust Design and Component Selection:
  * Conduct a thorough review of the turbine's design and identify potential weak points or failure-prone components.
  * Focus on enhancing the robustness of critical components such as blades, gearboxes, generators, and control systems.
  * Consider using higher-quality materials and components with proven track records of reliability.
2. Improved Maintenance and Monitoring:
  * Implement proactive maintenance strategies to identify and address potential issues before they cause significant downtime.
  * Develop a comprehensive maintenance schedule, including regular inspections, lubrication, and component replacements.
  * Utilize advanced monitoring systems that provide real-time data on turbine performance, enabling early detection of anomalies.
3. Remote Monitoring and Predictive Maintenance:
  * Invest in remote monitoring systems that allow for continuous monitoring of turbine performance.
  * Utilize data analytics and predictive maintenance algorithms to detect patterns and predict failures in advance.
  * Implement condition-based maintenance strategies, where maintenance activities are scheduled based on the actual condition of the turbine components rather than fixed time intervals.
4. Redundancy and Fault Tolerance:
  * Incorporate redundancy and fault-tolerant features in critical systems to minimize the impact of component failures.
  * Design the turbine with backup systems or alternative pathways to ensure that failures in one component do not lead to complete turbine shutdown.
  * Implement smart control systems that can automatically switch to backup systems or adjust operating parameters to mitigate the effects of failures.
5. Comprehensive Testing and Validation:
  * Conduct thorough testing and validation of the turbine under various operating conditions and stress scenarios.
  * Utilize accelerated testing methods to simulate long-term operation and identify potential reliability issues.
  * Seek independent validation and certification from reputable organizations to assure customers of the turbine's reliability.
6. Continuous Improvement and Feedback Loop:
  * Establish a feedback loop with customers and operators to gather information on the turbine's performance and reliability in the field.
  * Utilize this feedback to drive continuous improvement efforts in design, manufacturing, and maintenance practices.
  * Demonstrate a commitment to addressing reliability concerns and actively working towards enhancing turbine reliability.
7. Comprehensive Warranty and Support:
  * Offer comprehensive warranty packages that provide coverage for potential reliability issues.
  * Communicate your commitment to customer support and responsiveness in addressing any reliability concerns that may arise.
  * Establish a strong after-sales support team to promptly address customer inquiries, maintenance needs, and technical issues.

Addressing reliability concerns requires a holistic approach that encompasses design improvements, proactive maintenance strategies, advanced monitoring systems, fault tolerance measures, and continuous improvement efforts. By demonstrating a commitment to enhancing turbine reliability and providing comprehensive warranty and support, you can mitigate the impact of the lower reliability perception and build trust among customers.
[/quote]

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-06-01 09:47:53 UTC | #834

https://www.rvo.nl/sites/default/files/2021/10/Dutch%20Offshore%20Wind%20Guide%202022.pdf

[quote]
**1.1 Global overview**
**offshore wind development**

As more countries in coastal regions plan to utilize their offshore wind potential, the Global Wind Energy Council (GWEC) forecasts 235 GW of new offshore wind capacity will be installed over the next decade under current policies.1

Today, Europe remains the largest market for offshore wind, making up more than half of total global installations. In the short-term, Europe will continue to be a leader in offshore wind, mainly driven by installations in Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Poland and the UK. However, the Asia-Pacific region is primed to take over this position, led by China where record amounts of new offshore wind capacity are expected to be installed by 2030. Taiwan is set to become the second largest offshore wind market in Asia after mainland China. Other markets in the region such as Japan and South Korea are also beginning to scale-up their offshore wind ambitions, following net zero/carbon neutrality commitments.

The US has just 30 MW of offshore wind capacity in operation today, but deployment will accelerate in the coming years to 41 GW installed capacity by 2030, according to the Biden administration. The majority of this growth will come from the sector in the US and it is expected that the first utility-scale projects will come online by 2024.


--------------
-----------------
---------------

**Borssele WFZ 5 (19 MW)**
The Borssele WFZ V site, designated as a small-scale demonstration site for offshore wind innovations, was won by the Two Towers consortium, comprising Van Oord, Investri Offshore and Green Giraffe in 2018. Situated within site III of the Borssele Wind Farm Zone, Borssele V features two Vestas 9.5-MW turbines and several innovations, one of which is a submerged Slip Joint. The design and manufacturing of the Slip Joint were certified by DNV GL in the autumn of 2019. Other innovations include Thermally Sprayed Aluminum (TSA), Impressed Current Cathodic Protection (ICCP) optimization, and oval cable entry holes. Finally, the seabed surrounding the two Borssele WFZ V wind turbines is fitted with eco-friendly scour protection.3  This technology is used to explore how nature and renewable energy generation can be mutually enhancing. Oysters will be placed on the protective layer of rock on
the seabed to improve erosion protection as well as biodiversity and the natural habitat for aquatic wildlife. 

**Hollandse Kust (noord) (760 MW)**
[...] Apart from building and operating the wind farm, the CrossWind consortium also deploys a series of innovations (technology demonstrations), such as a floating solar farm, short-term battery storage, turbines that are ‘tuned’ to minimize the wake effect that turbines can have on one another, green hydrogen produced through electrolysis, and the combination of these individual measures to ensure a continuous power supply regardless of the wind.

[/quote]


[quote]

**2.1.4 Step 4. Installing the grid connection**
The Dutch national electricity Transmission System Operator (TSO) TenneT has legally been appointed to be responsible for the connection of the wind farms to the onshore electricity grid. As the planning and installation of this offshore grid network generally takes 8 to 10 years (depending on the distance, technique, and permit procedures and EIA), the grid installation decision is made as early as possible in the process. The permit for TenneT is made publicly available for inspection (and appeal) by all parties, after which it becomes irrevocable.

The choice of TenneT, as the offshore grid system operator, has clear advantages over individual grid connections installed by project developers. The advantages are mainly financial and relate to economies of scale following standardization in substation design, purchasing, maintenance and knowledge development. Grid operation by TenneT also simplifies compensating grid fluctuations, flow management, and balancing supply and demand, whilst integral grid operation also leads to a clear distribution of tasks and responsibilities in the electricity system. 

To create the cost-saving economies of scale, standardized AC substations with an individual capacity of 700 MW, have been designed to connect the wind farms to the national grid, using two 220-kV export cables.7  As soon as 380-kV subsea cables become available, these will be utilized to further reduce the number of cables required.

In the event that DC substations are required (such as for the wind farm zone IJmuiden Ver, scheduled in Roadmap 2030), the connected transmission capacity is approximately 2 GW and an onshore converter station via two 525-kilovolt cables will be part of the offshore grid.8

The inter-array (infield) cables, which connect the wind turbines to the substation, remain the responsibility of the project developer. The wind turbines will be connected to the TenneT platform through 66-kV infield cables, making the Dutch offshore wind farms the first in the world to be connected by a voltage level of 66 kV instead of 33 kV.

[/quote]
---------------------------------
----------------------------------

  https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox_15_turbine_selection_and_purchase
[quote]

* [Community Wind Toolbox](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox)
* [Chapter 1: Introduction](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox_1_introduction)
* [Chapter 2: Development Overview and Checklist](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox-2-development-overview-and-checklist)
* [Chapter 3: Project Planning and Management](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox-3-project-planning-and-management)
* [Chapter 4: Wind Resource Assessment](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox-4-wind-resource-assessment)
* [Chapter 5: Siting Guidelines](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox_5_siting_guidelines)
* [Chapter 6: Permitting Basics](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox_6_permitting_basics)
* [Chapter 7: Leases and Easements](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox_7_leases_and_easements)
* [Chapter 8: Costs](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox_8_costs)
* [Chapter 9: Financing](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox_9_financing)
* [Chapter 10: Tax Incentives](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox_10_tax_incentives)
* [Chapter 11: Choosing a Business Model](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox_11_choosing_a_business_model)
* [Chapter 12: The Minnesota Flip](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox_12_the_minnesota_flip)
* [Chapter 13: Power Purchase Agreement](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox_13_power_purchase_agreement)
* [Chapter 14: Interconnection](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox_14_interconnection)
* [Chapter 15: Turbine Selection and Purchase](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox_15_turbine_selection_and_purchase)
* [Chapter 16: Public Policy](https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox_16_public_policy)

## Chapter 15: Turbine Selection and Purchase


https://www.windustry.org/community_wind_toolbox_15_turbine_selection_and_purchase

### Reliability

![|24x23](https://www.windustry.org/sites/windustry.org/files/u2/BottomLine.jpg)*Turbines that are not producing energy are losing money, and a machine that breaks down regularly will quickly eat away at your bottom line. Consider that most projects are designed to be operational 98 percent of the time (“98% availability”). This only allows approximately 7 days per year that each turbine can be shut down for regular and non-scheduled maintenance.*

Picking a machine that has a good track record in the field as well as a manufacturer with a reputation for quality equipment and quick response when problems do arise will help to keep your project in the black. Talk to as many different developers, maintenance company representatives, people who are investors in projects, consultants, and others in the industry as you can to learn who is selling the best machines and which models to avoid. If you have to wait a little longer for a quality machine and can build this into your project timeline, it may be a worthwhile consideration.

### Warranty

Most wind turbine manufacturers offer a standard 2-year parts and labor warranty, which may include a power curve and availability warranty. It is also common for turbine manufacturers to offer to extend the warranty to 5 years at an additional cost. These warranties will address design and manufacturing flaws and provide replacement parts and labor. Extending the warranty on the machines for smaller projects is generally a good idea, and financing institutions may require this before lending money to the project. An extended warranty will provide insurance against major failure while the project accrues a contingency fund for any major equipment failures after the warranty period expires.

![|24x23](https://www.windustry.org/sites/windustry.org/files/u2/BestPractices.jpg)*A contingency fund is money that is set aside in a separate reserve account for the project to access after the warranty has expired to pay for major repairs or component replacement above and beyond scheduled maintenance, and is an important item to include in the business plan for your project.*

The turbine sales agreement will cover delivery schedule of the machine (important due to tight construction and interconnection schedules), parts, and labor. It may also cover the power curve, ensuring that the machine will generate as much electricity (and revenue) as you had planned for in your business prospectus, although the technical requirements for measuring the power curve can prove very expensive and are not generally affordable for smaller projects.

### Proximity of Operation and Maintenance Teams

Your operations and maintenance costs will be significantly reduced if your turbine supplier or other qualified vendor has active O&M teams in your area. This reduces the cost of travel and reduced availability resulting from unscheduled maintenance requirements.


### Service Contracts

Service contracts are available through the major turbine manufacturers and numerous qualified third party vendors. The terms and costs of these contracts will vary with the size and proximity of your project in relation to existing projects using the same manufacturers. Some turbine manufacturers will not offer service contracts if your project is small and/or far away from existing projects or may offer inflated costs to deter you from entering into a contract. Third party O&M companies may be retained for service on machines, but may void the manufacturer’s warranty if they are not approved by the manufacturer.

## Negotiating a Turbine Deal

The process of acquiring turbines is more complicated for smaller projects because turbine manufacturers prefer to deal with firms that can commit to large volume orders for several years. Most community developers are smaller and do not have the resources to construct sizeable projects every year. The three P’s that will help you get those turbines in the ground are planning, patience, and persistence.

**Planning.** Turbine manufacturers generally require a 10-25% down payment for machines well in advance (1-2 years or more) of when the turbines are to be delivered. It goes without saying that you should have a plan for financing your wind project prior to entering discussions with any wind turbine manufacturer. You need to plan for this well in advance, so that you can initiate discussions with turbine manufacturers early on in the development process, and have funds readily available for all turbine payments when required. This will allow you to better position your project in the turbine acquisition queue so that you can get a machine delivered in the time frame your project needs to be successful.

**Patience.** Negotiation of a turbine purchase can be time consuming and may be complicated by ever-changing market, financial, and policy conditions which are beyond your control. Equipment prices, the global supply of turbine components, raw materials, and transportation costs and schedules all affect your project’s bottom line. These factors can change on a daily basis. Public policy decisions determine the incentives available to your project. Acquiring a turbine purchase agreement that will keep your project in the black requires patience to cope with all these changing factors and rapid growth of the industry.

**Persistence.** Turbine manufacturers in today’s market are interested in high volume transactions and repeat business to keep overhead costs low and certainty in future orders high. As a new developer with little or no history in the wind industry, you may have to approach many different manufacturers and continually contact them to keep your project moving forward. There are also equity investment firms that have access to particular turbines in exchange for a financial stake in the project. This may make the turbine acquisition process easier but may also dilute the project in terms of financial return and governance, so the positives and negatives of these types of arrangements should be weighed carefully.

### Purchasing Strategies for Community Projects

**Aggregation.** Community wind developers in the Midwest are well aware of the difficulties in negotiating turbine purchase deals. Many community developers are exploring the prospects of negotiating turbine purchase agreements for several projects at the same time, thus reducing transaction overhead costs, and increasing the ability of the community wind developers to garner manufacturers' attention with higher volume orders."

![|24x23](https://www.windustry.org/sites/windustry.org/files/u2/Caution.jpg)*When deciding to work with these firms, you may have to give up some or most of your control of the project or take on additional risk. It is up to you, your board of directors, investors and other key project team members to understand the terms and risks involved before deciding to move forward with a turbine deal involving these companies. It is advisable to work with a lawyer to truly understand the terms of these partnerships.*

### Getting Started

Most wind turbine manufacturers will require some basic information about your project before sitting down to the negotiating table. Generally, you as a developer will fill out a project information sheet including: project location and size, information about the wind resource in the area (including 50- or 100-year 3-second gust data), turbulence intensity, site layout, and interconnection plan. The manufacturer may also require you to identify various sources of funding for the project to make sure that you are serious and have made significant progress on developing the project. The application form in most cases does not have to be complete, but should provide enough information to show your understanding and ability to develop the project.

Before sitting down at the negotiating table, gather as much information as you can about the current state of the market and other deals that have been negotiated with the company and with other turbine manufacturers. It is also helpful to assemble a team that includes at least legal support, but it is better to also include engineering and accounting support, so that you can respond effectively to any issues that may arise during the negotiation process.

[/quote]

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-06-01 10:12:03 UTC | #835

righty oh, gives me something to aim at. 
as you mentioned wind parks ive had an idea a while back? it be brewing like wine in my skull? 
it has a maglev rotor?  would fit with the post i mention 27day ago? during the suspended awes talk on slow chat. 
![image|500x500](upload://wJxJk8KykM3e3mBttiHaa6OGj8X.jpeg)
https://youtu.be/M_URsjfZetc 
admittedly toying with a few ideas? magnetically levitated finial as the main rotor was rather barmy? though not 100% certian bout how this would work? id imaging it possible to weave conductor into the materials? maybe even graphene coated?   the design of the finials are like the top of the onion domes in Moscow or Russian orthodox churches.  it was also design to be bird friendly? easy to assemble?  just depend on your idea of what a wind park is?   i did have a vision kite being used to represent local families like giant billboard in the sky?  stretched across the bay near me? the vison i had was somewhere near Highcliffe?  with them following the cliff line?  size would be relative to needs? but if you have thousand of them?  it would look rather awesome?  we do have abandoned coastguard and radar station?  which could be brought back to use as a power terminus? not sure how easy it would be to sway my local council? they have been look in to wind farm for some time? though there have been many objection from concerned members of the public? 

in some of the ideas I had it does involve ion inducers? to make a bio pump of sort or to create a breeze when there isnt one? 
eco friendliness was certainly on my radar. i had been thing of getting really clever and making the rotor with poly magnetic fields?  or even have them look like Chinese's lantern at night? 

it just a question do you want hundred of larger turbines? are thousands of smaller turbines? i know it all add up? from what i just read it look like there's a push for huge GW arrays. in the sense of direction?   so is the goal to have TW capacity in the next 20 years?  i know it will take some organise and combined effort to pull it off? plug and play system would help a lot for rapid installation?  you also have the possibility of multiple layers. with the sky being the limit? i do like the barrage approach to wind? 

trust and collective effort is really smart way to go. especially if the are expertise you require but cant easily deliver on your own. this would apply to me on a Santa cluas level?  so give me two really option be a helper of be helped by hundreds of helpers? as i know there certian thing im not all to familiar with?  the former rather than later would be representative in my case? that just  my 10cents on it? i know i have some major obstacle to overcome before i'm in deep? i'm look at this from hobbyist eyes?  i'm sure there details i will have to brush up on? 
but there a fair few sign post here i can follow?  if i get lucky and end up with a workshop?  then the sky the limit as ive been told on many occasion?  

with all that said? looks like awes will need all the luck it can get in this challenging market?  
good luck everyone! may fortune favour the bold?

-------------------------

dougselsam | 2023-06-01 18:46:54 UTC | #836

If you are an individual wanting to buy a single turbine, it would be hard to even be taken seriously, as a start.  How much effort does anyone want to put into (maybe) selling one turbine?  And you won't have a dedicated maintenance staff on hand so you want low maintenance and reliability.  My advice is to pick a model that us not "trying too hard".  Just a basic turbine, not a "low wind speed" turbine cuz the longer, heavier blades will be an issue.   The greatest turbine in the world is worthless if it isn't running.  
Meanwhile, CHAT GPT:  If you had asked Chat GPT what the James Webb telescope was going to see, ahead of the fact, it would have surveyed everything the most credentialed astrophysicists said, and it would have been wrong.  AI as a field has been around for decades.  Don't buy into the current hype cycle.  It's computers - subject to "garbage-in/garbage-out"!  :)

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-06-02 15:55:31 UTC | #837

[quote]

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT3xfppte3Y

Flywheel reinvention revolutionising our power grids!

210,428 views  Jan 1, 2023
Flywheels are an ancient technology going right back to the potters wheels of 3,000BC. But this simple technology is now being developed to provide kinetic inertia that can help stabilise the voltage frequency of utility grids around the world. So could this be another step on the way to full grid decarbonisation in the coming years?

[/quote]

A good introduction, and some discussion of megawatt scale systems being developed and deployed.

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-06-02 23:04:15 UTC | #838

[quote="dougselsam, post:836, topic:1610"]
If you had asked Chat GPT what the James Webb telescope was going to see
[/quote]

I didn't though. I asked for pointers about what to look out for in a well-established process that I could also ask wind park developers about, or read a book about. But this only took a few seconds. This is the kind of question that it is good for. It gives a starting point for further research. Later I found some actual info. I still haven't found the book.

AI hallucinates, people hallucinate, you'll have to imagine the disclaimer about that and the advice to check things for yourself as I'm going to assume that that is common knowledge and not repeat it every time I post a link or a quote.

-------------------------

Freeflying | 2023-06-03 09:19:13 UTC | #839

im going to go a little of topic and throw a spanner like i normally do? 
https://forum.awesystems.info/t/slow-chat/1610/609?u=freeflying
sat alone in with my thoughts? some mention to paramagnetics liquid oxygen came up that caused a few triggers?  planets of outer solar system have some of the strongest magnetic field we know of? wind powered thermos flask any good to you guys? we already know getting thing cold has superconducting properties?  i this thought it was replacing the liquid sodium with something far colder?  then spinning it up? it doesn't need to be liquid oxygen per say? but something with the right magnetic qualities to generate the field magnetic need for large scale energy production. within a large coil set up? 

and yes it will need all the above suggestion for chatGTP to pull it off! think of this a barn find project you have all the bit? it just need to be assembled? ive been looking for a fluid that can under particular circumstance generate magnetic fields? this might be one way to to this? up the possibilities for wind power? im not expecting to get more out than put in?  but with drop of Jupiter and that big ball of gas running though my mind?  metallic hydrogen might do the job? once it all stirred up?  a few degrees off 0 kelvin there a sweet spot? i wonder how AWES can exploit it?  

if any one want to jumping in? be my guest? your always look for cool new projects?  none cooler than this? -240 degree/ abt.30 kelvin is pretty cold. it 40 grades above me? so im going to boomerang it?  just to see what come back? just found the thought very interesting this morning? as comprehend and copy nature is a well guide ethos?  i shall live it here for comment?

-------------------------

dougselsam | 2023-06-03 12:41:44 UTC | #840

[quote="Windy_Skies, post:837, topic:1610"]
this simple technology is now being developed to provide kinetic inertia that can help stabilise the voltage frequency of utility grids around the world
[/quote]

Without reading the article, I'd say this looks like one more example of how replacing generators with solar panels and wind turbines running thru solid-state inverters may not be the slam-dunk people assume.  The idea is every clean energy source must be redundantly complemented by some old-school backup equipment, such as natural=gas turbines ready to s[pool up the moment there is no wind and the sun goes behind clouds..  One well-understood main advantage of generators is they provide "spinning reserves".  I keep hearing that China is building 2 coal plants per week (100/year) for the foreseeable future, while we close fossil fuel plants with no way to reopen them if needed.

-------------------------

dougselsam | 2023-06-03 12:48:37 UTC | #841

[quote="Windy_Skies, post:838, topic:1610"]
AI hallucinates, people hallucinate
[/quote]

And lately people are suffering from mass-hallucination that AI is some new thing that just emerged, and suddenly will eliminate most jobs.  A survey of all the ignorance and misinformation on the web.  It's a stock-market hype-cycle.  The people talking about regulating it seem to be worried it might suddenly figure out what's really going on and blurt it out.

-------------------------

AweEnthusiast | 2023-06-07 12:41:42 UTC | #842

"Two similar news items in one day underscores US DOE failure in AWE; EU now building private AWE R&D momentum on the foundation of consistent EU Commission and National investments-

[Wind - Airborne Wind Energy Developer Kitemill Attracts Voss Energi as Lead Investor - Renewable Energy Magazine, at the heart of clean energy journalism](https://www.renewableenergymagazine.com/wind/airborne-wind-energy-developer-kitemill-attracts-voss-20230606)

US DOE leadership failed to materialize, despite AWE identification at LLNL in 1980 and "Revolutionary Potential" (2014-17 DOE Wind Roadmaps)."
- DaveS

-------------------------

dougselsam | 2023-06-14 17:54:32 UTC | #843

I'm sure a few of you saw this article in "Interesting Engineering"
Just thought I'd throw some raw meat into the enclosure of those who have been trying to associate quantum behavior (Bose-Einstein condensate) and kite-string-phonons to kites producing useful energy.
Anyway, here's the link to the article I saw:
LINK:
[Splitting phonons or sound for new type of quantum computer (interestingengineering.com)](https://interestingengineering.com/science/a-new-study-shows-how-splitting-sound-takes-us-one-step-closer-to-a-new-type-of-quantum-computer)

-------------------------

dougselsam | 2023-06-15 17:01:22 UTC | #844

In AWE, it still seems that all real progress is in the future (and always will be?).  Sigh...  :)

-------------------------

tallakt | 2023-06-16 13:41:17 UTC | #845

I guess Enerkites new wing is news, in the near future we should see how it flies :)

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-06-18 14:39:20 UTC | #846

2 posts were split to a new topic: [Magpie Aviation](/t/magpie-aviation/2494)

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-06-26 14:50:13 UTC | #847

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/26/shipping-emissions-could-be-halved-without-damaging-trade-research-finds

[Quote]

[...]

As countries prepare for the IMO meetings, which will take place in London from Monday 26 June to 7 July, research published on Monday by the consultancy CE Delft found that CO2 from shipping could be cut by between a third and a half this decade by using already available techniques and embarking on innovative technology such as hydrogen.

There are ways of using oil-powered ships more efficiently, including better maintenance of engines, cutting speeds slightly or optimising speeds to the sea conditions. Ships can be fitted with modern forms of sails or “wind-assist” technologies that take some of the strain from engines when the wind is strong.

If these were used, and another 5-10% of shipping were to begin to use experimental fuels such as hydrogen, biofuels or forms of electrification with solar batteries, then emissions from fuel use could be cut by between 36% and 47% within the next decade, compared with 2008 levels.

Starting to use these methods now will save money in the longer term. University College London has estimated that every year of delay in decarbonising this decade will cost the shipping industry an additional $100bn to reach net zero by mid-century.

Campaigners said it was important that the research had found cutting emissions would not have an impact on global trade, as previously countries including Argentina, China, India, Brazil, Ecuador and Saudi Arabia had cited damage to trade as a reason for opposing attempts to regulate carbon within the IMO.
[/Quote]

https://cedelft.eu/publications/shipping-ghg-emissions-2030/

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-06-27 16:25:42 UTC | #848

https://web.archive.org/web/20230627121056/https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/27/business/energy-environment/marthas-vineyard-wind-farm-massachusetts.html

-------------------------

dougselsam | 2023-06-27 20:56:54 UTC | #849

The latest news I heard on the shipping fuel topic was England is experiencing unprecedentedly high ocean temps, possibly due to low-sulfur bunker fuels.  The high-sulfur fuels produce atmospheric aerosols in the form of a haze that reflects sunlight.  Without the haze, the ocean warms.  Or so it is hypothesized.  Not the time it has been noted that sulfur-containing aerosols for a haze with a reflective cooling effect.  Often noted after volcanic eruptions too.
 I think they said the water temp is like 59 Fahrenheit, which, to me, is very cold.  You want to have a good wetsuit at that temp.  
Anyway, I just saw a video with a marine biologist explaining how the Great Barrier reef is actually more extensive now than at any known time.  Meanwhile, where was the reef 12,000 years ago when sea levels were 300-400 feet lower?  Nonexistent?  Hmmm.  Ever notice how the endless scare stories and supposed bad news never seem to have any counterbalance?
I'm still excited about airborne wind energy.
We need to get some economical, useful version available for some purpose!  :)

-------------------------

dougselsam | 2023-06-27 21:01:37 UTC | #850

By the way, Southern California has had the coolest Spring season anyone can remember.  Here at the edge of the Mojave Desert I actually had the heat on the other morning.  We're lucky if it gets over 70 F during the day.
Still plenty of snow on the mountains visible.  In a few days though, it's supposed to hit 100 degrees.  oh well, it was nice while it lasted.  
Texas has been having a heat wave.  Telling everyone to conserve electricity.  I guess they are lucky most cars are not electric...  :)

-------------------------

dougselsam | 2023-06-28 16:17:24 UTC | #851

This just in:  NASA gave up on electrifying an existing model of airplane.  Just too difficult.  The article says it will never fly:
https://newatlas.com/aircraft/nasa-s-x-57-stays-grounded-despite-project-successes/

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-07-02 19:55:50 UTC | #852

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/jul/02/it-was-an-accident-the-scientists-who-have-turned-humid-air-into-renewable-power

-------------------------

dougselsam | 2023-07-03 12:40:32 UTC | #853

Lightning is bad for wind energy systems.

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-07-09 03:45:05 UTC | #854

[quote]
### https://psuwatch.com/newsupdates/1-gw-in-1-quarter-indias-wind-energy-capacity-addition-sees-unprecedented-jump

**New Delhi:** India’s wind energy capacity installation has seen an unprecedented jump in the first quarter of the current fiscal as projects totalling 1.13 GW were installed across the country, which is more than the installations achieved annually for the last six years. According to data sourced from the Ministry of New and Renewable Energy ([MNRE](https://psuwatch.com/newsupdates/mnre-unveils-rs-17490-cr-incentive-schemes-for-electrolysers-green-hydrogen)), India had installed 430 MW of wind energy capacities in the last financial year. In contrast, 1,139.9 MW of wind energy projects have been installed in the June quarter alone in this financial year. This is a jump of around 165 percent year-on-year.

“India has been steadily increasing its wind installed capacity over the years. In 1st Quarter of FY2023-24, India added 1139.9 MW of wind power capacity which is about 3.5 times greater than the average installed capacity for same period during the past 6 years,” said the MNRE.

#### India wind energy capacity installations

According to official data, India installed 228.4 MW of wind energy projects in 2017-18, 150.4 MW in 2018-19, 752.5 MW in 2019-20, 108.7 MW in 2020-21, 266.8 MW in 2021-22 and 430.4 MW in 2022-23. With three quarters still remaining in this financial year, the capacity addition is only expected to grow further during this period.

The government has recently chalked out a bidding trajectory under which it has entrusted the renewable energy implementing agencies, like NTPC, NHPC, Solar Energy Corporation of India (SECI) and SJVN, with the task of bidding out 50 GW of Renewable Energy (RE) projects every year. This 50 GW will include 10 GW of wind energy projects every year. The bidding plan has been prepared keeping in mind India’s commitment to put in place 500 GW of non-fossil fuel-based power generation capacity by 2030. 

[/quote]

-------------------------

dougselsam | 2023-07-09 16:41:29 UTC | #855

Aptera solar car:
Hi Guys!
OK just checking out the latest with Aptera:
[Aptera Motors](https://aptera.us/)
Geez, all these years and they're still just taking reservations?
I remember coming up with a similar idea, long before I ever saw Aptera.
I had always envisioned GoKarts for the highway, light, fast, and cheap, but they seemed too low to be seen in traffic.
So I imagined an elevated GoKart, kind of like a medical gurney, or a stretcher on an elevated structure on wheels.
But the problems I imagined were that such a configuration created a top-heavy "highway coffin", ready to be slammed by other vehicles, but without the driver protection offered by a full car body.
Also, the top-heavy aspect, and the light weight, seemed like they could cause such a vehicle to go airborne at high speeds if exposed to a decent wind.  Say you are going 60 mph into a 40 mph gust - there's the 100 mph takeoff speed you might need to get it off the ground.
So, as much as I liked the idea initially, the more I thought about it, the less likely it seemed.
But then Apteros emerged.  
Only thing is, it's never quite ready.
Not sure what the problem is.
If you look at the video clips of it driving down a road on their website, it seems kind of jumpy and unstable, in a tippy sort of way, as though the suspension is not able to absorb bumps well.
Anyway, another dream that seems perpetually "on hold"...

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-07-10 09:42:01 UTC | #856

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jul/06/revolutionary-solar-power-cell-innovations-break-key-energy-threshold
[quote]
Solar power cells have raced past the key milestone of 30% energy efficiency, after innovations by multiple research groups around the world. The feat makes this a “revolutionary” year, according to one expert, and could accelerate the rollout of solar power.

Today’s solar panels use silicon-based cells but are rapidly approaching their maximum conversion of sunlight to electricity of 29%. At the same time, the installation rate of solar power needs to [increase tenfold](https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adf6957) in order to tackle the climate crisis, according to scientists.

The breakthrough is adding a layer of perovskite, another semiconductor, on top of the silicon layer. This captures blue light from the visible spectrum, while the silicon captures red light, boosting the total light captured overall. With more energy absorbed per cell, the cost of solar electricity is even cheaper, and deployment can proceed faster to help keep global heating under control.

The perovskite-silicon “tandem” cells have been under research for about a decade, but recent technical improvements have now pushed them past the 30% milestone. Experts said that if the scaling-up of production of the tandem cells proceeds smoothly, they could be commercially available within five years, about the same time silicon-only cells reach their maximum efficiency.

[...]
[/quote]

https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/14srude/revolutionary_solar_power_cell_innovations_break/

[quote]
Small gripe: Perovskite solar cells and tandem perovskites don't use the *mineral* perovskite, as the article incorrectly state. They use materials that have the [perovskite crystal structure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perovskite_(structure)), and typically use lead and halides. There've been attempts to make unleaded versions, but they have lower efficiency.

Plus, they degrade much faster than silicon cells, lasting a max of a few years. Couple this with the lead, and there's some major concerns.

If you're interested in this sort of thing, [here's a link to the NREL's tracker for highest efficiencies of different types of cells.](https://www.nrel.gov/pv/interactive-cell-efficiency.html) Highest are approaching 50%, but honestly the manufacturing techniques aren't there for mass production of anything but silicon. This might be overcome with government and private entities putting a lot of money into research, but most use exotic materials. Silicon isn't great, but it's what we've got and there's a reason it's been the dominant type of cell for a while now. The research is still invaluable and should be continued, and reporting on it is appreciated.
[/quote]

[quote]


[quote]    This captures blue light from the visible spectrum, while the silicon captures red light, boosting the total light captured overall.[/quote]

The problem with silicon isn't the amount of light captured, it's the amount of energy per photon: it depends on the so called "bandgap" of the material, which is the difference in energy between the base and the excited state of an electron. For silicon, that is 1.1 eV, which corresponds to the energy of a photon somewhere in the near infrared. Silicon can absorb higher energy photons, but it can only ever convert these 1.1 eV into useful energy, the rest is converted into heat. This means that silicon has a theoretical limit of just below 30% conversion efficiency, if it absorbs all the photons from near infrared to UV.

Multi-Junction solar panels improve on that by using higher energy bandgap materials on top of the silicon. So instead of getting only 1.1 eV from every single photon, you might now be able to get 2.5 eV from everything blue and below in addition to that.
[/quote]

[quote]
Silicon solar panels are made of aluminum, glass, sometimes plastic, silicon, and copper, in that order. None of those are rare, and all of them are recyclable.

In particular, new solar silicon comes from quartz sand, which requires a lot of energy to separate the silicon from. Recycling old solar cells can skip that step, as they are purer than what comes out of the reduction furnace. It is just very few solar panels have reached end-of-life yet, so recycling is barely needed.

Wind turbines are mainly steel and plastic (for the blades).

Lithium is more common than copper, but we didn't need much of it until recently. Development of new mines is underway, such as Thacker Pass in northern Nevada.

**The first commercial iron-air battery factory started construction recently.** Iron is much cheaper than lithium, but also heavier. So they will be used for stationary storage, leaving lithium for mobile uses.
[/quote]

[quote]
The challenge for multijunction is cost. Each added layer adds cost to production, and so far one layer with silicon or CdTe has proven cheaper. In space, where weight is critical and the spectrum is different, multijuntion cells are commonly used.
[/quote]

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-07-10 10:13:42 UTC | #857

A post was split to a new topic: [Form Energy - Iron Air Batteries](/t/form-energy-iron-air-batteries/2505)

-------------------------

Windy_Skies | 2023-07-10 15:40:55 UTC | #858

https://www.reddit.com/r/kites/comments/14viyvw/kite_power_project_what_kite_should_i_use/

-------------------------

dougselsam | 2023-07-11 14:55:41 UTC | #859

I noticed a link from clicking on this story, a yacht pulled by a kite:
[SILENT 60 - Kite Sail System Premiere - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKsmLC-uOhs&t=90s)

The yacht is called a 
Silent 60
and there are other sizes besides the "60" in production.
They make a great show of explaining how they designed it from a fresh sheet around the electric motors, batteries, and solar panels, and how the motors are only the size of a couple of shoeboxes, easily hidden beneath the floorboards.

The manufacturer's own publicity does not seem to include the kite, in fact they explain how much better solar is than wind for a boat

Then, after watching quite a lot of video footage, about how perfect it all is, they feel that they must divulge a hidden secret:

 At 15 minutes into this video, they reveal the 220 Horsepower, diesel-powered, Volvo Penta D3-220 engine, calling it a "backup generator" - you know, just in case you want to go somewhere and it is getting dark, or cloudy, or whatever...  They say **it would be irresponsible not to have it.**   :slight_smile: 

Video:
[The 100% Solar Powered Sun Ship That NEVER Needs Charging! - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyyDw9KuWWs)

Engine:
[D3 | Inboard Shaft Engine Range | Volvo Penta](https://www.volvopenta.com/en-us/marine/products/inboard-shaft/inboard-shaft-engine-range/d3/)

-------------------------