Your definition of electric power production differs from what most of us are thinking about, same as your definition that kitesurfing is airborne wind energy…
My definition of electrical power production is whatever Electrical Engineering accepts as such. Same with KiteSurfing as AWE, as defined by the basic physics.
Popular opinion is a poorer guide to technical usages than citing formal criteria. I therefore count aviation tailwinds as AWE, with proportional fuel savings, and bird soaring, wind-seeds, and even toy kites. These are all formally AWE and worthy of study. Magnus kites too, but its one of the weak AWE ideas.
In case you haven’t noticed, the game daveS and JoeF play is to try to redefine words already in common use, in a vain effort to somehow create an illusion that they are involved in wind energy. Rather than trying to create actual change in the actual 3-D world, they think if they can just change the dictionary, they can pretend to be creating change. This has been gong on for 12 years. Most people find it quite annoying. If you point out simple facts, like published statistics for energy production in general, let alone wind energy production, do not include routing airline flights to take advantage of tailwinds, you will not get an answer. Instead they just move on to their next absurd statement. Rather than seeing how silly and ineffective it makes them look in wind energy circles, they seem to think they come out appearing as winners, having demonstrated their cleverness, rather than stubbornly obnoxious, offering no true energy solutions.
Doug overlooks that no one cites standard definitions from engineering science more than JoeF and me. Yes, we do coin new terms, like “AWE” itself.
That’s why Doug has no examples to offer, while I have been invoking here third-party definitions from WP and the applicable engineering science fields. Let Doug and Tallak define terms as they will, and we’ll keep track of their versions.
And the habitual format for a daveS response begins with:
(observer’s name) (verb indicating neglect or misunderstanding by the observer)
12 years of silly online word games, still no power generated.
Doug ignores himself as the ready example here of non-technical word usage, when he writes “no power”.
In fact, as a ship-kite power-kite guy, my circle holds the max power records in AWE. Its a team effort, and we all share in the successes. Even the KiteLab Ilwaco’s Seiko self-winding quartz watch AWES counts as real power, at the other extreme.
Doug’s solo effort is closer in power to the watch than the ship-kite, but still worthy. Lets hope he makes more power just as he wants of others.
Also, daveS, actual practitioners do not feel an endless need to cite (or deny) standard definitions, but rather use words the way they are normally understood, so as to make their message understood by normal people.
I forgot one:
or its equivalent. (example type of phrase)
I cannot even imagine the running total of the number of times daveS has used this tactic.
One would think that after well over a decade of this nonsense, he would be weary of reading his own repetitive drivel, but instead, it looks like he is just getting started. The longer he goes on, the more impressed with himself he becomes. The internet, with its ease of expressing what nobody would bother publishing in a book, or even waste a stamp to send in a letter, results in some very strange situations.
Sooooo, the “topic” is Magenn (again), and daveS is “an expert” telling everyone “how it is” - in a kaleidoscopic fictitious fantasy carnival-world where everything is upside-down, backwards, and inside-out.
DougS, If you did not “overlook” or “ignore” so much formal knowledge, the phrases would not apply.
Dr. Paul McCready and Miles Loyd are great examples of those who have both practiced flight and used formal terminology well in AWE. Try communicating like them and Good Luck in your AWE practice.
I am a good source of Magenn background in AWE, having known Fred Ferguson and followed his Magnus-based ventures since my own LTA days back in the '80s. If you have any information to add on-topic, please share it.
Funny how you apply these phrases to everyone but yourself and JoeF.
Funny how most teams end up generating at least some power, while you claim to be the best, but rather than generating any power, you point to jets using tailwinds, and hope people fall for it.
Yes I have some more info on Magenn - the same thing I said the moment it reared its ridiculous multi-million-dollar mentally-challenged head:
The idea takes the worst-performing of the commonly-pursued wind turbine types, and reduces the swept area while making it more expensive - and that was just the beginning.
You talk a lot, but with all your supposed “formal knowledge”, produce no results.
Why might that be?
JoeF and I also overlook and perhaps somehow ignore formal knowledge applicable to AWE. Thanks to everyone who helps us fill those gaps.
At least Magenn demoed at higher altitudes in better wind than the ST has been able to show.
You ongoing public relations campaign, trying to get people living in their mom’s basement to think you are the world’s leading authority on wind energy…
I am quite knowledgeable about the ST in relation to aviation scaling laws, and also Magenn shortcomings.
You may know more about supposed “mom’s basement” folks who only understand “common use” of words. Where is the data for that?
And an air Magnus balloon can easily scale, probably more than a kite. I easily realized cylindrical solar balloons until 800 m3, 10 m diameter and 20 m height Solar balloon jumping. The basis was open while the air Magnus balloon should be closed.
See also a 92 m blimp without internal structural framework.
Moreover the air mass in rotation would add some stability.
An most of all - the build is really simple… just the outside skin and the rotating drive, pressurize it and add a small pump for leakage… and a onboard HAWT turbine for internal use…
Here is a similar concept to magnus wings. The wing it seems has a C_L in the range 4 to 6 at the moment (which is nuts large if anyone wondered).
A few notes and links-
Low Power to Weight is not made up by high Cl.
Comparison of high Cl should be made with wings with slats and flaps, like modern airliner wings.
Comparison also with biplanes and large low-wing-loading wings.
For professional fire fighting, airplanes need to ferry long distances, wherever the fires are in a given year. A slow inefficient cruise is not favored.
Low noise is a definite FanWing advantage, but not for fire fighting.
Gyroscopic stability becomes an issue if the aircraft needs to roll fast.
Hopeful Monsters are loveable, but struggle to survive:
Magnus Effect of a sport ball-
Lift to weight is a metric you seem to put very highly, though our calculations show kite weight is only a big factor in the lower wind range due to gravity slowdown. Higher C_L might even alleviate gravity slowdown. I will agree that mass in general is a bad thing, as is additional motors and moving parts, as is high onboard power use.
Still magnus/fanwing remains an interesting option for AWE, if not the most probable route to success…
Apart from FanWing, and by being focused on AWES, such a comparison with air Magnus balloon would be relevant by taking account of both weight and ease of construction. An AWE rigid plane with (possibly fixed in the construction) slats and flaps is not easy to build but not impossible. Perhaps some soft kites could also obtain a high CL with means comparable to slats and flaps. I think about 4 lines power kites where it is possible to bend the trailing edge during flight, but not with a good result as the initial L/D ratio is already too low.
So for AWE air Magnus balloon is a possible high CL option.
Magnus can only develop high Cl at poor power-to-weight compared to a mass-equivalent power kite.
One way of visualizing the comparison would be to make a SS power kite of the same surface area and mass as the balloon fabric, with no flying motor-gen.
The math paints the same picture about power-to-weight. High Cl has traditionally only been essential for landing a large airplane on a shorter runway, when the plane is dropping and slowing anyway, bleeding off energy.
Let anyone do comparative testing for those who still have doubts.
There are many classic kite designs, “sticky” and soft, with multiple surfaces like a slatted flap wing; not the best flyers.
Magnus will be quite good wrt wildlife…
The First Order Wildlife Factor to AWE Tech is the looming Holocene Extinction. Magnus AWES is a poor engineering choice from that over-arching perspective.
Its plausible that a higher-performing architecture that kills more birds and bats directly could paradoxically save them better from the Holocene Extinction. Once again, the Power Kite seems to be in the Goldilocks zone between inferior design extremes.