"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"

Funny and predictable to look at the list of posts and see the red letter K over and over, outweighing all other contributors combined. Same as before. 100% predictable. I was really surprised when I originally read something about someone having “invited” the person who many of us (wait - who is “us”?) us forum participants had repeatedly protested was ruining “the old forum”. At that point, it was easily predictable that:

  1. He would (seek to?) dominate all content on the new forum,
  2. engendering endless “arguments” over trivial nitpicking items not normally deserving mention. (“off-topic”, “netiquette” (an outdated term from when you were supposed to get permission to post a link, and never send an unsolicited e-mail(???)) abuse of language, endless pointless “arguments” over silly, annoying diversionary topics and contrived technicalities)
    I think part of the problem is people who seem to want to start such a forum often do it for the wrong reasons: They want a place to air their own views, by their own standards, and in many cases degenerate to simply not allowing any content that does not agree with their own personal views. (Think “facebok”, etc.) Imagine a forum where the moderator(s) are not allowed to post. Like a sports referee is not allowed to be a team member. That was the problem with “the old forum”. They were happy to repeat inaccurate promises of various teams to execute future projects, at some location, at some time, but came to literally prohibit any discussion of those stated future “projects” when that future arrived. They didn’t want to know. (Deep down I think they realized they had swallowed to many outright lies) So, due to that dynamic, it became impossible to form an educated opinion on whether a given technological approach was showing true promise, or being ruled out, at least so far as being a slam-dunk or as overwhelmingly promising. At some point, with both opinons and facts disallowed over the most pertinent aspects of AWE research (supposedly) under discussion, the old forum became almost meaningless, for any purpose. To this day, for example, I’m no closer to being able to assess the viability of a concept like “kite-reeling” beyond my initial assessment that it seemed unsophisticated and pedestrian in its approach, just the first thing that has popped into the head of almost any energy-person flying any kite. (“Look - the kite is pulling a string! Who knew???”) The intermittency and general awkwardness were two aspects I saw as problematic. (Notice I didn’t say “noticed on the forum” - hey, I don’t want to give away credit for my own debunking contributions!) Also, they ignored the fast movement of the working surfaces, instead turning it almost into sort of a much slower drag-based machine, which is generally seen as the least efficient approach to wind energy (like a Savonius turbine, or a Magenn AWE system). But then again, that was just my opinion - my off-the-cuff analysis. In favor of the reeling approach I would note that with a regular large turbine, the fast movement of a blade is reduced to a fraction of that speed at the root where the power is extracted, and that a kite-string is less expensive than a tower. But, due to censorship and suppression of facts on the old forum, combined with corporate dishonesty and secrecy over the stated project just at the moment the projects are scheduled to begin, I have no more information about kite-reeling than I did 5 years ago. So one might ask, what is the purpose of such a forum, if we remain in a place of ZERO information about the main, most highly-publicized approaches to AWE? In some ways, I think “we” knew more about AWE ten years ago than we do now. Now, we know nothing. It’s wide-open. Nearly zero facts to work with. Well, maybe the silence of those highly-publicized approaches speaks for itself. One thing you have to realize about wind energy: It’s thousands of years old and most “new ideas” are actually old ideas, long disproven or made obsolete by progress, resulting from the real need to actually make more power at less cost. Anyway, imagine fleeing a village because of disease, then inviting the most prolific spreader of the disease to your new village. Oh well, newbies will be newbies… :slight_smile:
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If Doug will do a word-count in posting, he’ll find we are both prolific posters. What counts is the quality of posting, not ad hominin argument.

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The Who Lyrics

"Won’t Get Fooled Again"

We’ll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I’ll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I’ll get on my knees and pray
We don’t get fooled again

The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that’s all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain’t changed
'Cause the banners, they are flown in the last war

I’ll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I’ll get on my knees and pray
We don’t get fooled again
No, no!

I’ll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I’ll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Oh I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?

There’s nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by the bye
And a parting on the left
Is now a parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I’ll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I’ll get on my knees and pray
We don’t get fooled again
Don’t get fooled again
No, no!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

Why create a new forum? I will not take any credit for the job in doing it, this goes to @Luke, but I was one of the first people to talk about starting this forum. So this is my reasoning:

Yahoo is a near dead company. The only news I heard about Yahoo was that they treated their employees unfairly. Yahoo groups has seen no updates for ages, and is frankly quite difficult to use. Add to that it seems I am not able to post messages most of the time, quite annoying when you have spent 10 minutes of my PRECIOUS time writing some golden words down, and you don’t get to make them public at all. I was a regular reader of arcusers back in the days, and yahoo groups was a pain even by those day’s standards.

While Discourse is not perfect to my taste, it is certainly a very good piece of software that power many well known forums (I guess I should state sources here, but I just wont bother, this is an informal forum after all). If you feel that the design of Discourse is so poor that you would rather use Yahoo groups, I think perhaps you are in a quite small minority in the world. Thats ok, I dont mind the old forum thriving. And the new forum will thrive if people see some point in reading whats in there. It’s not really rocket science that part.

I feel that this should be enough to lay to rest the discussion why did we need the new forum and if the new forum is this or that. Its here just… because… there’s no larger reason except what I just explained. There’s no point in going further into that detail.

Moderation: c’mon guys/girls… we are all just people who find this stuff interesting. None of us get paid to keep this forum a nice place for people to drop by. I will not name particular names here, but by adding endless useless bickering to this forum you are not only decreasing the signal to noise ratio of the forum, you are also placing a burdensome and really difficult task of moderation upon the very people who got this forum started. It’s quite rude IMHO. I had the questions asked myself, I would rather not have to deal with this stuff.

If people moderate your posts, please be grateful that someone is actually trying to make this forum a better place. Use this to consider whether the stuff added to the forum is adding more value, or if you already stated your technical insight in a previous post.

I have not yet exchanged messages with anyone who takes censorship and moderation lightly.

That being said, here are my tips for thriving in this community:

  • Be nice to people, but be hard on the techical subjects.
  • Don’t expect the readers to understand acronyms etc. We want to welcome newcomers. If you want to grab people’s attention, consider putting in the work to make the post concise and understandable for most/all readers.
  • If someone posts something wrong, that doesn’t mean they won the discussion. Let people make up their own minds, don’t try to get the last word. Hopefully you made your point clear in the initial post.
  • Considers other’s attention a resource. If you write something, maybe 100 people will read it later. So put inn 10x the effort you would normally put into making eg. an email to make sure those 100 readers have their time well spent

The forum already contains lots of interesting and thoughtful posts. It’s not difficult people…

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Hey there, I think this mainly goes out to me.

Seems like he has a lot of time and something to say about anything or at least something related. While I don’t like the forum being dominated by a single person, when nothing is wrong with the post itself, it will stand. I could technically have a restriction on the number of posts, as level one users have, but that’s no solution especially if things get heated and the restricted person can’t defend themselves anymore.

Point 2 was all over the place. Could have used a bit more structure.

Well I started the forum because @tallakt wanted a place to discuss awes.^^
Seemed like easy enough to do and a lot of people would benefit from the new infrastructure so here it is.

In reply to the thing about promises and blindly repeating them…
Any unrealistic rendering and obviously false promise can be posted here and anyone can say that it’s not viable. I like the idea of tracking promises and predictions. Don’t know how to implement that here though. We had a poll about success of the KiweeOne, which was nice.

You mean what we here call yo-yo, I assume.For example @Kitepower B.V. have just had a great long duration test. That is evidence in favor of its viability (the usual doubts about self-reporting apply.) This was reported here. KPS going rigid has also been posted which is evicence that rigid is better and the Harrop report was discussed as well which claimed that most companies will go rigid. I don’t want do discuss the issue wether yo-yo or soft kites are good. Just pointing out that there is information here that can help to make up ones mind. (Good epistemology [theory of knowledge] is hard)

Let’s not discuss old forum problems here. You probably want to warn me/us to avoid the old forum problems, but it reads more like a complaining about things there.

I think technology has developed things like microprocessors which enable active flight control so the situation is different from thousands of years ago.^^ But that’s for another thread.

I don’t think you can now know less than before. If there has been silence from key projects then you know how they did before plus you have some evidence that they likely failed.

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I invited Dave here and welcome you too Doug because I like to see all perspectives and I think any problems in communication are solvable – with limited moderation. I don’t see much animosity and we’re working towards the same goal.

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Correction: I don’t “have a lot of time”, but a lot to share about AWE.

The Forum moderation choices to police acronyms, traditional syntax, big words, stoppages, weasel-hunting, and so on, are enormously time consuming to all of us.

At this point I would happily go away in favor of Doug and Moderation “for clarity”.

Luke said: “For example @Kitepower B.V. have just had a great long duration test. That is evidence in favor of its viability (the usual doubts about self-reporting apply.) This was reported here.”
I’ve been trying to find any information on Kitepower for years now. Google them and the “news” section of their website offers nothing of interest. I click on their name in the post I’m replying to now, on this forum, and cannot even find a post by them. I find no Kitepower news anywhere. I’d love to see some news, from them nd nyone else purporting to be “powering X hundred homes in location Y at timeZ”, or anyone making few hundred Watts from throwing together some trash that flies. nythhing. Give me anything to chew on. The last news items I remember were “renting office space” and a new test site where they were not allowed to fly most of the time (smart choice), but that they had all last summer to test, but as seems typical of the most highly-funded projects, when showtime arrives, the “progress” stops and is replaced by a news blackout. Meanwhile, we who just like to build stuff and try it have no problem publishing videos of our machines being destroyed by the wind, since it’s all a learning experience and fun. Where can we find out ANY information on ANY AWE project? I, for one, would like to know.

If you don’t want to see your thread move far away from the topic, I’d recommend oping a new topic for the discussion about Kitepower. I’m talking about this one btw.: https://kitepower.nl/ , not KPS or http://www.kpowertechnology.com/ , the one @kitefreak often refers to.
They’ve clearly got a containerized system. That in itself is a big feat. They are calling it a 100kW system and I assume they are really targeting that power at least at peak. Anything else would make them very untrustworthy. It would be nice to get detailled information, but they are for profit and we’ve got to take what we get. At least they haven’t quietly gone under.^^ That’s more than a lot of ventures have acchieved.
I’d even bet that they will be the first to sell a containerized 100kW system which multiple companies are targeting.

Would open a specific thread for that one as well. I for one, follow the twitter accounts, newsletters and posts by the specific companies as well as researchers like Roland Schmehl.

By the way: Quoting here is really easy. You don’t have to do this manually. Just mark some text and click on quote. It will be inserted right

your cursor is in the post you’re writing or open a new post.

Thanks for the links, Luke. I was asking about KPS, at http://www.kps.energy/
using the same logo as the NL kitepower. The clues were that their news consists of “new office space” and a test facility they are not allowed to use for half the year or so, and that they were going to be (more future “news”) testing all summer this year, at least from my understanding.
I found the kitepower.NL news - thanks. Kind of sounds OK, but not overly exciting. Less than 1000 power strokes in 26 hours doesn’t tell me much. Sounds like more of “we’re still trying to figure out how to fly a kite” news. After all these years. No power output figures at all. I’d love to know more. Seems like there ought to be a system running regularly, by now, somewhere. Usually a wind energy system is installed and runs continuously after that.
By the way, I like the idea of a wind energy system based on a shipping container too. Seems obvious. Maybe too obvious. You often see it accompanied by the “disaster relief” meme. I’ve seen the same thing in regular wind energy. The turbine had too many blades, as a start. And the blades had winglets on the ends. These clues told real wind energy people that it would go nowhere. All we need are a few telltale signs to know. Part of “The Professor Crackpot Syndrome” is the good professor often ruins a perfectly good invention by adding more inventions, beyond his expertise. Combining a wind turbine and shipping container does not mean you need to pretend to reinvent the wind turbine in the process.
https://www.treehugger.com/wind-technology/50kw-wind-turbine-folds-itself-shipping-container-portable-power.html
Real wind people immediately know what they’re looking at: complete insanity, that will go nowhere, in that basis alone. I’ve tried to explain what I call “The Professor Crackpot Syndrome” in wind energy to AWE people but their response seems to be “but that’s what we ARE!” Yeah, I know… Too bad, tried to warn you.
The symptoms are the repeated over and over. The “disaster relief” meme makes no sense since in a disaster people need reliable power in large amounts right way, as in a MegaWatt genset running 24/7 regardless of weather, which is a more appropriate thing to have in that shipping container when lives are at stake. Not waiting around, with people dying, for some knumbnuts to try to fly a kite, as the wind becomes calm for a few days. I remember a guy named David C. Fender a few years ago heading to Fukushima with some kite energy system or kite idea at least. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know a disaster scene does not need some “Professor Crackpot” trying to develop some weak, half-thought-through prototype “solution”. They need immediate real help, not questionable, onsite, R&D, best performed at a decently-equipped research site. Same with “powering X homes in remote area Y” - do your experiments first, perfect your product, THEN consider extremely remote sites. Sure diesel costs more in remote sites. But so does your questionble R&D project.
Seeing all this, I almost want to throw the shipping-container meme in with the Professor Crackpot Syndrome. I’m not quite ready to go there, but for now let’s say it COULD be “a symptom” in some cases. I have too many cool shipping container ideas to throw the whole idea away, but it raises red flags. See, as I often say, there are unlimited ways to make power from the wind, usually very expensive for the power produced. The ones that count are the economically-advantageous ones. So anyway, I’m always interested to hear of any progress in AWE, but as far as real wind energy people are concerned, if, after 10 year of trying, if nobody is powering anything with an AWE system and none is in regular use, it is only a curiosity at this point. I’d like to know of any real progress.

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Agreed! Kites might augment diesel gensets though in areas that are affected for a longer time. (Or diesel gensets augment awes)

Just because it would be silly to deploy a half baked awes now, it can still be great application, once fully developed and proven.

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OK sure, coming from the guy who thinks developing a reliable and cost-effective AWE system is the easy part, whereas selling it would be the hard part, so it would be a good idea to start a company selling diesel gensets before trying to develop an AWE system, so one would have an easier time selling their easy-to-develop future AWE system, but only if you don’t get so involved with selling diesel gensets that you still have time for developing the AWE system.
Personally I think the whole “disaster relief” meme for AWE is just one more telltale sign of the complete insanity dominating the field. It goes something like this: We must “save the world” from “global warming” at all costs, so anything, no matter how improbable, is worth pursuing. But why stop at “global warming”? Any disaster will do! We aim to save the world, dammit! That’s what we do. Or, well, that’s what we’d like to do… All we know is we are here for our kites to solve disasters of any kind, whether appropriate or not, with no need to think any of it through! This is emotion, not reasoning, fantasy, not facts - come on! Get with “the program”! I think those guys from Uprise with the turbine in a shipping container talked about disaster-relief too. This stuff is all so repetitive and predictable… but great entertainment! :)))

That idea of the “market maker company” came about because I see that it would be useless for someone to make yet another company trying to develop awes, when there are existing ones in a much better position to do so. It was supposed to be a way to make a contribution to the adoption of awes. It would never develop awes, but improve the market for awes developers and builders.

If the goal is to have the largest positive impact on the world, I would advise to listen to https://80000hours.org/
For some people working in awes combined with earn to give might actually not be the worst idea.

Hi Luke:

OK that actually makes sense, if you don’t plan on developing the AWE system yourself, but instead plan to sell them should they emerge, then what you said bout selling diesel gensets is a sensible plan.

Still, I believe the disaster-relief meme is an artifact of the general insanity of AWE wannabes.

Disaster relief has got to be a teeny teeny subset of the energy industry.

Yet wannabe wind innovators flock to the concept.

Why?

They are driven by “headlines”, hype, and emotion.

The emotion of promoting their own concern for anyone in need, trying to be a “headline hero”, outweighs the simple fact that developing a reliable, economical energy solution is the task they’ve taken on. The task is more difficult than promoting emotional hype. So people go with generating hype rather than electricity. The disaster-relief meme is partly driven by the idea that in a disaster, people would be willing to pay extremely high prices for energy.

So if one had a way to generate electricity at A VERY HIGH PRICE, maybe a disaster would be the place to cash in.

But that ignores two things:

  1. The whole reason for AWE was to produce electricity at lower cost than existing windfarms.

  2. In a disaster, as in any other situation, people will bring in what works best at the lowest cost.

So unless and until you see working AWE systems in large numbers, due to low cost and high availability and high reliability, I see no sense in looking at disasters to rescue AWE.

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I am also a bit sceptical to disaster relief. If I was in a disaster I might prefer a diesel genrator to an AWE rig, being less «different» for an extreme situation.

That being said, AWE could have some selling points to make it competitive:

  • No need for fuel supply
  • Internittency of power may be acceptable
  • Lightweight and compact transport per kW power output
  • Fast commissioning and decommissioning

I think disaster relief is a niche market where price per kWh is not the only concern. In such a niche, AWE may be competitive for a smaller market. This could prove a stepping stone for a starting AWE before they are able to be competitive in more general markets.

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Doug I think your first point shall be reconsidered.
Most company aims to produce energy at a lower LCOE(Levelized Cost Of Energy) . That is the first differentiative argument that is first given by a large number of awe company.
I did that at first too. Then I realized that was utopic right now. This won’t happen before product are mature, so does the market. You just can’t sell magic. I quickly reconsider this argument and resettle kitewinder on something completely different which is : the use of electricity. What can you do with a certain amount of power in a given situation.
I change my mind real fast helped by the fact that in France, electricity is damn cheap ( thanks nuclear power) around 10cts euros per kwh. You just can’t compet. Total utopy.
To add some water to the windmill (French expression sorry), I think important point with awe is low raw materials consumption.

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And it could be the same in other countries, the nuclear power avoiding CO² emissions, while in some countries like Germany there is a fossil-wind mix ( coal plants and wind turbines) with a lot CO² emissions due to wind intermittency.

I wasn’t saying nuclear is great, just cheap. At least for now. Might not be true when power plant retreatment will be mandatory. In France our power plant are 40 to 50 years old.

Nuclear is the only one energy being able to prevent CO² emissions and delay the global warming. Without efficient storage means, wind energy cannot do it as it is mixed with fossil energies.

Wind Energy is a magnet for crackpots. (air is invisible so one can imagine it doing whatever they want)
Airborne Wind Energy is a Neodymium Supermagnet for crackpots.
The reason AWE wannabe-wind-energy people cite “disaster relief” for their imagined AWE systems is general insanity, and avoidance of the issue at hand. If they say “disaster relief” it subtly “answers” the question of “Why isn’t one of your systems in operation right this moment?” The answer is, of course “things just aren’t bad enough yet. If we had a bad enough disaster, our AWE system would be brought to bear on the situation, but as of this moment, there just isn’t a bad enough disaster.” If there DOES happen to be a disaster somewhere, they can shift the excuse to “we weren’t quite ready for THIS disaster, but we’re still targeting disaster relief”. It’s an excuse for doing nothing. It really makes no sense to pretend a disaster needs someone to show up with a wind energy device in a shipping container, when they could more effectively show up with a typical genset in the same shipping container, and enough fuel to power it too, for the duration of the disaster. It reminds me of this guy David C Fender who told me, years ago, he was off to Fukushima to try to develop an AWE system. I told him me was nuts. I mean, just think of it: If you have all the time in the world to develop and produce your “AWE system” able to find supplies for any industrial need, plan ahead to satisfy any need for power with an intermittent source of power, and you can’t find a single use for your imaginary AWE system anywhere in the world, with as much time as you could ask for, millions of dollars of funding available, a perfect test site wherever you want, etc., yet you go on about “disaster relief” where we would assume people are dying or dead, in a difficult-to-get-to location, people are in need of immediate emergency medical care, food, shelter, etc., and you want to show up and tell them you can produce some power for them if and when it ever gets windy in that location, which it probably won’t since people tend to avoid living near high winds. I just think the whole topic is dripping with wannabe pretendism and desperation, for people who like to pretend their way through life, leading to nothing but excuses. It’s the do-gooder mentality on overdrive, without any self awareness. People who can’t think their way out of a paper bag, easily find others who also can’t, and who will repeat the drivel. Just one more symptom of “The Professor Crackpot Syndrome”. I remember another shipping container wannabe wind turbine that I don’t think ever got past the rendering stage or maybe one prototype - 5 blades (hey guys- why the extra blades? Cuz they’re beginners! And beginners always want to add extra blades! Cuz they think their first contribution to wind energy will be to correct the number of blades from the ignorance of those dummies who think they only need three. And of course they want to use a shipping container for the base so their turbine can be shipped easily and set up onsite right atop the container, so they cite “disaster relief”. It’s not just AWE people who are like this - it has always been a part of wind energy. AWE people being new to the field think the field is new and their ideas are new - not so much. Most of what you see in AWE is a deja vu from regular wind energy.