Advanced Kite Networks

So @AweEnthusiast ,

I propose to study AKN further, considering 3 main subsystems which, in my opinion, should be addressed in the following order of priority:

1. Kite Networks
This point seems to be the most important one, as it concerns scalability, the stumbling block of any utility-scale AWES. And it can be physically realized and fly, regardless of the other two subsystems.

What are possible “kixels”? Triangles? Why not current power kites? How are the kixels oriented? By tilting? By other means including active control? Trajectories? Wind changes?

2. Multi-anchor system
This is an original point of AKN’s design. Where are the fixed anchors? How many are there? Where and how do the ropes that transmit power from the Kite Networks to the generators go? For that where are pulleys? This leads to the next point:

3. Conversion system
This is a thorny issue, which has benefited from an analysis by @tallakt who was able to identify problems or even impossibilities despite the inadequacy of the description.

I think that initially only the first point should be addressed, as it could also be used for the other systems studied, and also contains enough problems to solve.

Goal: building a working prototype or proof of concept.
Deadlines: not 2030, not 2050, now!
Marketing objectives? None, as it is not known whether a utility-scale AWES can actually be massively commercialized.

So going step by step. Above all to choose an option without getting lost in variants.

Wish to move forward: that Dave Santos re-joins the forum in order to keep the desired rhythm in the exchanges.

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Many thanks, @PierreB .
I believe we can start by having Dave Santos restored to the forum for his invaluable inputs. There certainly are developments beyond what has been revealed here including those I may not be in position to satisfactorily explain.
Considering also that the ban on Dave expires by year end, it is not out of place for the ban to be lifted now for rapprochement.

Changing the subject, one of your typical tactics. After 14 years of ever-shifting narratives, we’re supposed to take more empty words seriously? When will the empty talk have run its course and be ceased in lieu of some progress.

In 2008, as the current hype-cycle was getting underway, we were at:
“Kite flyers feel the power in kites and seek to find a good way to use that power in flying kites to generate electricity”.
After 14 years of empty talk and bragging about impending TeraWatts (You can’t make this stuff up) the circular firing squad is still at square-one, having made no progress whatsoever, having STILL not generated ANY significant power AT ALL, by any means. This would seem to fall under the category of people who think that just “saying” they “will do” something, on the internet, carries any meaning whatsoever. It’s an old story - some people build AWE devices and test them, some people make empty promises and never actually do much of anything. I believe this pretense of reorganizing “Jalbert’s Company”, similarly, carries no meaning, does not involve Jalbert in any way, and the cloth trianges we were told held the solution a few months ago remain in the same configuration they were in at the beginning of the summer, no progress, just the typical nothingness that follows the empty talk.

This is more than “a thorny issue” - it is the MAIN issue, and ALWAYS HAS BEEN. The idea that the conversion system is just some minor detail is absurd. The idea of a conversi8on system is WHAT AWE HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT. The LACK OF A CONVERSION SYSTEM IS WHY THIS GROUP HAS MADE N PROGRESS!

So NOW, after 14 years, we’re going to just pretend we just woke up and “All we need is a conversion system”? WTF have people been looking for the whole time? A WAY to CONVERT WIND ENERGY TO ELECTRICTY. That IS the goal. That always WAS the goal. The FACT of ZERO progress in that direction thusfar makes any further bragging-ahead-of-the-fact from this group meaningless in my opinion. It is ridiculous to keep taking any of these statements from thsi same empty source seriously after this much tiime, let alone when they would like to pretend we all just woke up this morning and had never heard the previous bragging promises and never witnessed them never take even the first rudimentary steps toward realizing any of these claims of sure future world domination. This field is just so ridiculous. It reminds me of listening to some worn-out bible-thumping preacher telling us the world is going to end tomorrow, and realizing he;s been saying the same thing for as long as we can remember, with only the details changing, and nothing he says ever coming true.

Interesting, @dougselsam
I’ll follow your illustration being an interesting topic to me despite the digression here.
Faith as defined in scripture is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
With God, time is never a constraint because He rules even times and seasons. Jesus told his enquiring disciples: "it is not for you to know the time which the Father has put in his own care."Just go witness to me - The Way, The Truth and The Life.
The Kingdom of God even in AWE is truly at hand, Doug; repent and believe the gospel.

Oh - nice, it;s actually John answering his own account! Nice to hear from you John! Yes, you cite a perfect match. Santos and bible-thumping. It’s not the first time his excuses have included biblical religious references, The idea is the same: People waiting since Roman times for Jesus to return, not even realizing all religion is based on ancient Astrology, with Christianity being the meme for the age of Pisces (fish), which is over now as we enter the age of Aquarius.
Just as we nonetheless still perpetually wait for Jesus to come back and save us all, We could wait a thousand years for the JAL/kPower/ AKN, MVP, WOW, AWE to magically emerge with a Mothra, or Nap-taking under a tarp, or something that wiggles to power the world - whatever the promise is - and thy clock will still be ticking, and thee unflappable faithful will keep repeating the promises, knowing they are really going to happen, n matter if it is the year 3020 instead of 2020. People will still be citing Rome as the problem, and saying all daveS needs is a means of power conversion. Cuz I mean, he’s got “Airborne”… and everyone has “Wind”, so, as always, all he needs is that little pesky detail, which we would call AWE: The means of power conversion. That’s all. Just that one minor detail - the main thing we all said was the goal so long ago, when this religion of endless waiting was first getting started on its latest hype-cycle.

@dougselsam I’m not sure how earnestly useful that last post was.
However I did find that astrology stuff you mentioned fascinatingly insightful
Did you know
Marcia Moore and Mark Douglas promoted the view that, although no one knows when the Aquarian Age begins, the American Revolution, the Industrial Revolution, and the discovery of electricity are all attributable to the Aquarian Age.[10] Moore and Douglas make a number of predictions about the trends that they believe will develop in the Aquarian Age.

Oh well there’s hope for us all then.
Thanks again

Yes if you look into the Astrology/religion connection, it has to do with “the great year” (precession cycle) and was even recognized by the Maya. Biblical stories are coded Astrology. The story of Moses destroying the Golden Calf, for example, was code for the end of the age of Taurus. Versions of Christianity including “Esus” existed before ancient Rome by the way. You may have heard of this, being from Scotland. The letter “J” is only a few hundred years old, by the way. There is no firm definition of the “borders” (starting and ending points) for the astrological signs. There is broad agreement on the 12 astrological signs, which stars, planets, regions of the night sky, and ancient gods they correlate with, etc., but the exact dates seem to be a matter of opinion as far as I’ve seen anyway. I’m sure someone knows about all this far better than me.
Anyway, I should clarify, when I talked of a means of power conversion, above, I didn’t specify Whether I meant the whole AWE system or “just the power-conversion part” of an otherwise promising system. I;d say in the case of the circular firing squad, I have not seen enough physical movement to say the problem is just that, say, an arch kite anchored at each end, or a set of cloth triangles tied together, offers sufficient movement to pretend that “all it needs is now a way to extract all that power it is making” or anything of the sort. Besides no compelling way to extract any power from any of these apparatus, there is NOT SUFFICIENT MOVEMENT in the apparatus for any means of power collection to have any power to collect. So I said they had “Airborne” and “WInd” and what was missing was the “E” (Energy), but that “energy” starts with MOVEMENT, NOT ELECTRICITY, and they have not shown any meaningful amount of movement, as far as serious power production with either Mothra OR Jalbert’s triangles. So I think it looks like we are going to be waiting for that full 1000 years+ … :slight_smile:

The AKN output was once supposed to be based on a swirling of the whole net creating phased tugging around a sheave at each anchor… The anchor lines would all connect in the middle to a giant generator.
This swirling was was going to have a natural frequency brought on by something like Von Karman Vortex… But maybe the frequency was actually

Wikipedia quote
Astrologers maintain that an astrological age is a product of the earth’s slow precessional rotation and lasts for 2,160 years, on average (one Great Year equals 25,920-year period of precession / 12 zodiac signs = 2,160 years).[1]

And that’s why we aren’t seeing it move

Just noticed that reminds me of a Wankel engine rotor’s movement, except the Wankel rotor also rotates as a whole. So many wannabe wind energy inventors come up with stuff that is backwards, inside-out, or in some way opposite to optimal. I recently had a crackpot submit his design for a wind turbine. Looked like an entirely logical wind energy device to a beginner. To a real wind person, however, the design was inside-out and every assumption that went into its design was backwards, including the “inventor’s” statement that air was “a solid”. There is no limit to how misguided and wrong outsiders can be about wind energy. They usually get more than just one thing wrong. Usually it is several wrongheaded notions combined.

I have to say that I am embarrassed to keep posting on this subject when Dave Santos is not allowed to speak on his own invention.

Nevertheless, I will try to highlight some essential points for the understanding of this project and how it could be decisive for a favorable evolution of the AWES whose existing and recognized achievements have been marking time for years.

First of all “Advanced Kite Network” is both the first subsystem (as I mentioned in my previous comment) and the title of the project.

Why a kite network? The reason is simple: a single kite, even a flexible one, cannot scale sufficiently, suffering from a mass penalty (even a slight one) due to material strength constraints. However, to be competitive and justify the high land and space use, an AWES must be able to scale beyond tens of thousands of square meters of surface for flexible kites.

Dave pointed out to me that my old OrthoKiteBunch (OKB) was a kind of kite network, especially if you add cross lines to connect the units (kixels). I thought the problem with kite networks (including OKB) was the propensity for units (kixels) to get tangled. The cross lines would limit the distance between the units (kixels), but not their closeness: in this way a kite network would work in tension, but not in compression, or rather not in the closeness of the units (kixels), because of the risk of entanglement.

This is where the second fundamental subsystem comes in (also mentioned as such in my previous message): the multi-anchor system. I thought it would be a good idea to link this second subsystem to the third subsystem which is the conversion system. But in fact, and without prejudging this connection, the first two subsystems are inseparable. Why is that?

The multi-anchor system is in fact a development of Dave’s idea that the earth works like a spar, providing rigidity, removing the requirement of adding structure. The spacing of the anchors prevents the units (kixels) from becoming entangled by preventing them from coming together (in compression if you like).

The idea of connecting the kite network and multi-anchor respective subsystems is therefore both simple and brilliant. This alone justifies the “Advanced” label in the title.

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Hello Pierre:
I will say I had that same idea of Earth providing crosswind separation decades ago, and even thought it could probably be developed into some formal rule for wind energy, that it requires something providing crosswind distance, and the Earth itself is an obvious pre-existing and handy way of achieving that distance, which in a regular wind turbine is achieved first by blade stiffness, then, once spinning, that plus centrifugal force.

I think your confidence is perhaps in advance of any evidence to justify it.
What you’re talking about amounts to a short-throw, reciprocating version of the cable-suspended sideways laddermill that was tried decades ago at a windfarm in Tehachapi, and quickly abandoned. Except, like a vertical-axis wind turbine, the network in the photos we’ve seen uses more material, ostensibly to aim in all directions at once.(?) And of course it will not enjoy high-aspect ratio blades, no high-speed airfoils to extract most of the available power, no steady-state operation, no specialized exposure of high-speed airfoils across the wind, which is the basic requirement for wind energy.

I do not see a kite network that has been shown to fly, in this case.
I do not see a kite network that has exhibited any tendency to pull in one direction or another, at all. Not even close. Not even a suggestion.
I have seen no movement of any kind from this “kite” network, period. Not even a promising wiggle. Nothing.
It does not look like a network of kites at all. It looks like a network of cloth triangles, with no way to fly them, or control them. If they are “kites”, have we seen one fly yet? Why not? It looks like they would get in each others’ way if somehow magically arranged in a dome.
Certainly we’ve not seen any movement that could be used to pull any cables or pull trains up the sides of a crater located below.

The only way we’ve seen it airborne at all was it was briefly tied below an actual kite (You know, the kind you can fly? Holding onto the string?)

Speaking of “laddermill”, remember how it was so celebrated, before one was ever built? How ingenious it was said to be? And to this day, nobody has still ever bothered to build one.

So, with that as an example, in my opinion, rather than celebrate THIS supposed wind energy breakthrough as “Brilliant”, “Advanced”, or even as a network of “Kites” at all (which it does not appear to even be), you might want to wait until someone actually DOES build an ACTUAL network of KITES that CAN move, and that CAN pull cables or otherwise power generators. What you are looking at here is a nothing-burger if I’ve ever seen one. A wish-list of a magic carpet from the fiction section of fantasy-land.

You don’t have anything shown to pull, be controllable, move in any way, OR EVEN FLY AT ALL(!!!), and you’re celebrating a “Brilliant” and “Advanced” puff of hot air, that has never been seen in real life, and for all you know, never will. If you ever see a shred of evidence that this is a good idea, then you might consider calling it at least “possibly useful” or “slightly promising” or “a potential first step”. And that’s AFTER it has been DEMONSTRATED to DO ANYTHING AT ALL!

I really can’t imagine the mentality of calling it anything more than “another empty promise”, when, as you know better than most, it is really nothing more than an extension of 14 years of continued all-talk BS, never resulting in significant power output, ever, so far, and counting, no matter the magnitude of threats to the contrary that never materialize…
The main story never changes, the details just magically disappear, then are replaced with whatever the latest fixation or excuse is.
Show us something real, not the latest fiction from the same old source.

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Hi Doug, I don’t think we can expect anyone among registered companies to build an advanced kite network (AKN) or a laddermill: the ground must first be cleared.

The simple and brilliant Dave Santos’ concept to connect kite network with multi-anchor respective subsystems, concerns a structural feature, applying to AKN. I had not seen it before (single line single kite systems prevail), even on the paper, not to mention the realization of prototypes. This fine concept deserves to lead to tests.

To start with let’s try a static AKN (aggregated lifting kites, why not round parachute kites tied side to side?): it will be much easier at first, enough to check how the spaced anchors would be useful.

Then with the same parachute kites let’s try a laddermill:

A main feature pf the aerial tramway I originally drew (later called “laddermill”) was that the descending panels would passively glide downward, flying like a passively-depowered kite, pulled along by the cable loop(s), powered mostly by the upward-traveling section. That downward gliding behavior is part of the overall lift that keeps the whole thing in the air. Remember the “airborne” part of AWE… If it were shown to work, someone might then attach a title like “advanced kite network”.
The array of triangles under present consideration is not airborne, does not include any “kites” that we’ve seen, and not only does not produce any energy, it has demonstrated no movement suggestive of producing any energy.

From Advanced Kite Networks - #85 by AweEnthusiast :

image

We distinguish the parts going to their respective three anchors located at the periphery. The triangles in the middle can be considered as artifacts of power kites or even simple lifting kites.

If this system allows, even if only to increase considerably the total surface of the kites in flight by ensuring cohesion of the kite network by the anchors, it would be a considerable step.

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Honestly, I don;t even know what you are talking about.
We’ve seen this picture - one of bout 3 or 4 repeat photos that are supposedly, somehow, supposed to convince us of some new type of AWE system.
Besides the kite used to lift this supposed-energy-producing apparatus,there is no actual kite in the apparatus. There is no movement of the apparatus. There is no pull in any direction. And as pointed out, there is no means of energy capture here. And no means of generating electricity. There is NOTHING here, of what this is SAID to be.
There is nothing to even respond to!
It is NOTHING.
I’m not sure if you are easily hypnotized or what - Can you not see what is, or is not, right in front of your eyes? This entire conversation, from the first moment earlier this year, is about NOTHING. There is NOTHING here. And no reason to keep having a conversation about NOTHING.

I offered to send them cameras, data cards, batteries in the past - whatever they need to record this more.
I got turned down on the offer.

All you offered are quite unnecessary as whatever little has been shown here proves that recording equipment are not lacking.
What is lacking is the fair play and justice that calls for an accused to be able to answer for himself in court. @PierreB has my thumbs up for his unparalleled on-point contributions at all times. Not so, for off-ranting @dougselsam

There may be babblers, wholly ignorant of mathematics, who dare to condemn my hypothesis, upon the authority of some part of the Bible twisted to suit their purpose. I value them not, and scorn their unfounded judgment.

Nicolaus Copernicus

Yes, all of the necessary recording equipment (a still camera) was on site, and recorded everything (which is pretty much nothing), indeed proving no data recording equipment was necessary.