Censored Content

update- Am told by moderation that the original post was restored, but that no flag or block was detected. I forwarded the flag warning I got, and the post was somehow hidden.

//////// original note //////////
Not sure who blocked this post or why, given the close on-topic connections, but putting it here for reference-

"Its odd to see so many Northern EU university-incubated ventures competing with similar but unproven kiteplane platforms for a market that has not yet developed. The technical claims seem like wildly speculative marketing, rather than the caution academia normally shows.

Note that high Lift Coefficient is a lower velocity flight mode where power kites excel. It won’t make much difference whether a kiteplane is a biplane or not, with a tail or not, and so on, if careful comparative testing is destined to favor the power kite.

It all may boil down which wing can crash, not kill anyone, pop right back up, and does not have an RF com link that can be jammed, plus the highest power-to-weight to-boot.

Good luck to all players who find themselves with the wrong architectural down-select, that they may somehow migrate to the winning architecture. This would be natural if everyone was cooperating more rather than competing for a quick return on a shakey investment.

Biplane kites are old hat in classic kite design, but monoplane kites dominate all high-performance kiting, for well known reasons. A bare biplane advantage over a monoplane is a slower landing velocity and stronger airframe, to not crack up quite as soon as faster kiteplanes.

Pray for third-party testing to settle the fog of AWE product claims."

You’re referencing this post:


Did you write that 11 hours ago and put it in the topic it is in now? I don’t think I see any admin action in the last few days on the comment. It also wasn’t flagged.

I received a notice it was flagged.

“Your post was flagged by the community.”

I’ve unhidden the comment as I don’t see the flag, or evidence that it was flagged.

If a comment is hidden on purpose, I would always message the user.

If a user with a high enough trust level flags a comment, it automatically hides it. It’s then on a moderator to review the comment and see what they want to do with it.

It’s likely me… I was finding this post objectionable.
crap moderator alert
Think I tried the flag as recommended in the user guidelines.
Saw that action hid the post and so I unflagged.
I presumed flagging would just highlight a potential issue / violation and not hide the post.

Florian’s paper makes very good justification arguments in favour of his design parameters…
Surely sentence this is contradictory because careful comparative testing will reveal the better design features.

Florian’s max predictions are clearly far off of the scaling and power predictions by soft kite proponents like SkySails (with soft wings ~1000m2 foreseen) and kPower (thousands of ~1000m2 units in networks).

Compare Florian’s direct kite experience against SkySails circling the globe. I would bet on the power kite, while hoping the rigid wings show up in a big fly-off.

Wow, it just gets weirder. Who decided I now can’t form new topics without approval? What topic have I ever created to deserve such crappy access?

Meanwhile, a moderator can be an “anonymous authority” (not good) while creating topics against anonymous authority (“Weasel Words”). That isn’t even AWE.

I was reposting about this AWES hack, but now sort of wish I hadn’t bothered-

You attempted to post in the Homebrew category. Topics in that category need moderator approval. More info here. I’m not sure your topic belongs in that category or not, so I will let someone else approve or reject your topic.

That’s nutty; Moderators thinking Homebrew needs extra policing, while Google runs amok unchecked.

eWind’s post is arguably far less Homebrew, and met with no blocking. They are a venture capital outfit, not a hacker collective.

Don’t even remember that I set it like that.^^ Sounds sensible. Will keep it that way. Added a note about it in the category description.

“Sounds sensible” is no logical justification for Homebrew to be especially constrained. Authority does not require logical justification to do as it pleases.

The flip-side is seeing Google-Makani to be sensible as tired default keynote leaders at AWEC conferences, year after year. They will not be challenged like Homebrew riff-raff, until their down-select debacle runs its course.

The Wright Brothers were High School drop-outs whose Flyer was Homebrew. They would have had to wait to post in their category. Maxwell and Langley would not even have posted here. These are formally class-structures, not merit-driven or egalitarian systems.

First my response to the first message in this thread from Santos, lamenting the redundancy of so many AWE projects and their likelihood for success, I’ve somewhat jokingly been calling it “idiots, idiots, idiots” all along, and while I certainly was including Santos in that category, I do not see anything wrong with his post.
I hope Santos can now see for himself now how ridiculous censorship is in “an open forum”.
How does it feel Dave Santos to find your honestly-expressed opinion being shut down because someone else has a different opinion, and that person has achieved the most powerful position he has ever attained in his life (junior-high-school-hall-monitor - er um I mean “internet-chat-group censor”) and thereby feels compelled to dictate and push things around to control what people are allowed to say in a group supposedly intent on breaking paradigms. Oh sure, break paradigms, just not any of MY paradigms.
I don’t care whether someone questions the statement that “Jesus” will solve AWE, whether highly-funded university efforts are naturally superior to backyard tinkerers, or even the idea of “global warming”, if you are looking for “out-of-the-box thinking”, you’d better be ready to entertain opinions that conflict with convention and (gasp!) authority.
Many if not most scientific theories are eventually modified, obsolete, or disproven. It is easy to see the political and religious influence over scientific “thinking” when you go back through history. So if you think you should censor peoples’ thoughts, consider whether you should be running an “open forum” seeking “new thinking”, “paradigm-shattering”, and “new, previously unknown ideas” because you are probably a natural “conformist”, possibly without much of a sense of humor, possibly very intolerant, probably the opposite of what you believe, so wake up and stop destroying free thought.
The photo of the electric skateboard and kite are interesting and it’s nice to hear someone rode such a skateboard in charge mode while being pulled by a kite. Slightly more impressive than shaking a self-winding watch, but in both cases, really, nothing new was learned, and no true progress was made toward AWE. Was there any doubt a kite could pu9ll someone on an electric skateboard, or that the skateboard could be set to charge while being pulled? We have no data, as usual, and nothing leading to a useful generation system. It’s a “science-fair-level” demo stunt, except for generating no data, bringing no new information, and not leading to a working, economical AWE system. If you want to imply such could be carried out on rails, on a road, on a dry lake, even on wet lake using a boat as many have proposed, as an economical energy harvesting system, someone would have to actually DO that, not just ride a skateboard while flying a kite and claim it is the world’s greatest wind energy research. Imagine applying for a grant from NREL, the CEC, or ARPA-E, for a project to fly a kite from an electric skateboard, allegedly on charge mode, taking no data, providing nothing but your anecdotal account of merely doing it and photo of your apparatus. At least if some data were included it could be said to point in some direction. Without the slightest bit of data we are left to “believe” some “estimate” from the perpetrator, whose statements are of questionable veracity, at best.
And speaking of “The Wright Brothers” and let’s throw in “Leonardo DaVinci”, in both cases these “geniuses” completely ignored what had been the largest source of non-animal power in Europe for nearly 1000 years, which consisted of shaped airfoils having a pressure (lower) surface and a suction (upper) surface.
These “geniuses” were UNAWARE of what was right in front of them. For 1000 years people walked by windmills not even knowing what they were looking at. 1000 years of “idiots, idiots, idoits”. Davinci could have talked to some real engineers who were powering the continent of Europe. The Wright Brothers could have just visited a working windmill and say “Heyyyyy, wait a minute!”, but they did not. Duh-Vinci instead drew the kind of unworkable crap you find on junior-high-school kid’s bored doodling in the margins of his notebook, while the Wrights spent years testing single-surface “airfoils” in wind tunnels before aviation slowly “developed” the “modern” airfoils which had already been in use for 1000 years! That is about as ignorant and clueless as you can get, and yet we celebrate it as genius! If and when AWE “takes off”, I believe you will find a similar “slap yourself in the head” moment, but then again, I’m not sure either the Wrights nor DuhVinci EVER REALIZED what they had overlooked. In the case of DuhVinci, he was long gone by the time aviation took hold. In the case of the Wrights, I do not remember ever hearing them lament how stupid they must have been to not notice their sought-after high-performance wings were already in operation, spinning in circles, right in front of their eyes, the whole time.
So people today celebrate these people who “overlooked” known, highly-developed technology as “geniuses”, airborne wind energy might look just as obvious in retrospect, that if you ever see it work out, you will slap yourself in the forehead as DuhVinci and the Wrights should have.

Correcting Doug: I do not “(lament) the redundancy of so many AWE projects and their likelihood for success”.

I have always thought everybody’s efforts count, and that the failures teach us all vital lessons. The redundancy is mostly helpful too. The more the merrier :slight_smile:

Yes of course, “correcting Doug”… Well I was just going off what you had said, but of course we know how that goes. I thin you belong on Snapchat so everything you say quickly disappears, lest anyone hold you to it.
But i agree, it is always funny to watch wind energy wannabe crackpots try to reinvent the wheel, but it gets kind of repetitive sometimes too when they all do the same thing. Oh well, at least they’ve mostly moved beyond just promoting typical vertical-axis turbines.


I did make clear again and again that its been worth it for players like Google to spend so much (~300M) to vet their high-complexity design space. No lamenting. That was incorrect.

Also, I was not censored from Homebrew, that was a moderation-block on everyone, and the post was duly approved. Censorship has been a minor irritation for a few posts that contained serious technical content, while flagged for Netiquette lapses. The damage was fixed.

Good luck doing better than Da Vinci and the Wright Bros.

OK, I’ll try to avoid 100%+, high-solidity rotors, single-surface working surfaces, and if a component is already known, proven for 1000 years, I’ll try not to spend years “inventing” it.
Google could have accomplished a lot by now. The bigger they are, the harder they fall, and the more subject to “group-think” they are. Oh well, you don’t expect Jimi Hendrix to emerge from the U.S. Marine Band. You just expect them to have a big budget, and to play Hail to the Chief when called upon to do so.

No Doug, I mean doing better than the Wrights and Da Vinci in life and history generally. The Wrights did greatly advance Turbine understanding and design, and Da Vinci is our first serious analyst of Dynamic Soaring, but these are not AWE players in the here-and-now.

No one can yet claim to be the Jimi Hendrix of AWE. Good luck if that is your goal. You need to practice more.

More of an observation than complaint (since complaints are hidden on the New Forum).

What the creators of this Forum have set up is an SPE, where self-selected Moderators lapse into authoritarian abuse of moderation power over those who reject such power. Its even more asymmetric here than original SPE, because instead of a coin flip, those attracted to absolute moderation power were able to self-select. The bloated software array of available moderation powers further promoted excesses.

AWE knowledge as such is comparatively disadvantaged.


Stanford prison experiment

The Stanford prison experiment (SPE) was a social psychology experiment that attempted to investigate the psychological effects of perceived power, focusing on the struggle between prisoners and prison officers. It was conducted at Stanford University on the days of August 14–20, 1971, by a research group led by psychology professor Philip Zimbardo using college students. In the study, volunteers were assigned to be either “guards” or “prisoners” by the flip of a coin, in a mock prison, with Z

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Set up an authoritative AWES website forum
A better one.
More open.

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Quite amusing :face_with_hand_over_mouth:
The creators is basically me. It is filled with life by others though.

“SPE” That’s great.^^ Total TMATB! (The more acronyms the better) Makes one seem incredibly wise.
Did you know the SPE is quite a myth? Can recommend this podcast episode: http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/show/rs-241-thibault-le-texier-on-debunking-the-stanford-prison-e.html

Anyone can self select to be a modertator. Anyone can host their own forum. As for the rest of the mod selection: That’s on me.

Btw.: The moderation and rules and such could be better if I wasn’t totally half assing this as barely a side project.^^

Have you heard of reddit or facebook or twitter or personal blogs/websites? You can post totally unrestricted there. There’s also an awes subreddit. (Which will have rules though if it gets used much)