Speaking of jet designers, I took Santos’ advice and contacted Minesto for some details.
The main guy Magnus told me they have yet to feed the grid, and that their projects thusfar have just been demos. Said their first grid feed is slated to be this year when they will connect their first two machines to the grid in the Faroe Islands
2 Likes
11 posts were merged into an existing topic: What do you call underwater AWE? - off topic discussion split from [Minesto Underwater AWE News]
The same info you can find on their website: https://minesto.com/news-media/minesto-signs-ppa-electric-utility-sev-utility-scale-tidal-energy-installations
A quick browse on their website gave me this Swedish talk where the slides (in English) say the same thing. They raised a total of 34 million euro in public and private funding in 2019.
Part in the video where we can see the system in action: https://youtu.be/1sJKplU2F7U?t=539
Really? Where is the info that they have yet to feed the grid? (Never generated electricity into the grid)? That was the observation of interest. My possibly-flawed recollection was “deep green” was supposed to generate 500 kW into a grid. I know it was supposed to send 500 kW somewhere.
A post was merged into an existing topic: What do you call underwater AWE? - off topic discussion split from [Minesto Underwater AWE News]
They have a 100kW demonstrator
Yeah that has been “the news” for it seems like years now. We waited years for one detail after another, as the promise of feeding the grid was repeated but not realized. When the project was supposed to actually finally feed the grid we had maybe another year of reasons why it wasn’t quite working. The physical connection - the electrical connection… - a nut here, and a bolt there - Now that it is finally been “showtime” for months, the song remains the same. Yesterday’s meaningful future powering of the grid is now said to be on a “trial basis”. No news of how much daily power is being supplied. So to me, that seems to set the story back a few years, because all the previous activity was supposed to have been on a trial basis, and this was supposed to now be making a meaningful contribution to the local grid power. To me, this “story” reads like a “fluff-piece” that adds no new information for anyone who has been following the story. Kind of reminds me of the press coverage of Makani and Altaeros, now years ago. Let’s remember, none of their similar promises ever materialized. Powering the grid in a remote location slowly turns into an endless story of “getting ready to get ready”, and only years later do we just barely hear the bad news, and even then. only if we read between the lines of what is not being said…
1 Like
Can’t think of a successful wind turbine business which stopped learning as it went along and scaled.
Keyword: “successful”.
Look up Kenetech, Flowind… Many more examples abound.
Crosswind kites seem to struggle being truly viable, both in the air and underwater. The drawbacks can be a lack of reliability, material wear due to irregular and high forces… as for their AWE cousins.
The fixed turbine (as for a conventional HAWT, as also for some AWES, E.g. Kiwee) seems to work:
nice renderings…
It looks like a really significant progress.
Minesto recently resumed operations with its tidal kite system DG100 in the company’s project in the Faroe Islands, which Minesto is carrying out together with the electric utility company SEV. Following this spring’s success with electricity production in Vestmannasund, Minestos has upgraded the DG100 system to increase production performance in terms of both maximum and average power.
“The modifications we have made have resulted in further improved performance during recent weeks’ electricity production in Vestmannasund. Among other things, we have reached new record levels in terms of the highest measured maximum production at 139 kW and the highest average power on a lap with 92 kW. We generate electricity to grid over full tidal cycles with satisfactory performance, which is very positive from a cost of energy perspective"
When will an equivalent progress be made for an AWES, for example a flygen system like Makani which seems to be closer to Minesto technology? Looks like the higher density of the water makes it easier to operate the crosswind “kite”, avoiding too high speed.
1 Like
Wonder what scaling limit they will bump into? Mass is a non issue underwater.
From https://minesto.com/our-technology :
Deep Green Utility Deep Green Microgrid Application Multi-megawatt grid-connected farms Remote islands, remote/coastal communities, aquaculture Market Global Global Market driver Adding baseload renewable energy to the energy mix Emerging energy access, electrification of remote users Customers Utilities, project developers, power producers Project developers, island economies, aquaculture developers Rated power 0.5–3MW 50–250kW Wingspan 12–24m 4–6m Weight 10–35t 1–3t Depth of installation >60m <60m Operating stream flows 1.2–3.0m/s 1.2–3.0m/s Operation & Maintenance Surface/onshore Surface/onshore
Operating stream flows: 1.2 - 3.0 m/s, vs operating wind speed (for AWES) about 5 - 15 m/s.
I was informed that the speed of the kite can be until about 15 m/s, v/s about 40 - 60 m/s for a rigid crosswind AWES. For an equivalent power, the weight looks to be a few times Makani wing weight.
15 m/s speed in water leads to a far lower (37 times less) kinetic energy than let’s say 50 m/s for the same mass in air.
For what I think, the mass issue is mitigated in two ways underwater: the Archimedes thrust, and a far lower kinetic energy, preventing the kite from excessively slowing down its ascent after the descending part of the trajectory.
Hi Guys!
Pierre, I wouldn’t get quite so excited by this “news”. Let’s examine it a little more closely: What is really being said here?
-
They have not been running their rig all this time, but instead had stopped.
-
Output seems to be below the projected levels
-
They are still working on getting it running right
-
A third party verification has revealed less power than expected
-
There are issues with weaker tides depending on timing
-
There are issues with consistent output around the entire path
What information is new here? Output? No. Just the fact of someone else measuring it. Wow it took that long just for someone to measure it? :Like what, a year-and-a-half?
This is just really restating all they’ve been saying for years, except that when someone else finally measured the output, it was found lacking, and that there are other issues that we’ve never heard of, impeding consistent output.
Let me re-write the headline:
Minesto testing halted after false start. Upon resumption, issues emerge. Independent measurement indicates average output less than nameplate rating.
Anyway, last I knew, Joe and Santos were trying to squirm their way out of saying they had placed their bets on Minesto. They didn’t want to be stuck there.
But anyway, what is all this, really? Minesto tooting their own horn again, another “press-release”, with less-than-stellar “info”, but it is really just regurgitated info - same story, different day. My take on what had been said before was the device had already been tested and proven, and was to be put into full-time operation. Instead we find they are still just testing intermittently, still working on the configuration. So this is really not-so-good news, stated as though it is even news at all.
In short, there is nothing new or noteworthy here. It is just Minesto backing off their previous statements of having a fully-developed system being permanently installed and going into full-time operation, admitting that their device has not been in continuous operation, and that instead they are “still working on it”. It does seem to reflect some of the issues that killed Makani’s effort.
From Minesto | Holyhead Deep :
Developing Holyhead Deep into a commercial tidal energy array will be done in phases. In a first step, one 0.5MW demonstrator, called DG500, will be installed.
The DG100 system was tested. So if the 0.5 MW demonstrator is called DG500, we can deduce that the DG100 is a 0.1 MW (100 kW) system. From https://minesto.com/news-media/new-record-level-and-third-party-verification-electricity-generation-minestos-faroe :
Among other things, we have reached new record levels in terms of the highest measured maximum production at 139 kW and the highest average power on a lap with 92 kW.
These measured values correspond to the expectations of a 0.1 MW system.
I think the difference in our perception here seems to be your assumption that Minesto were more or less at commercial products stage, while I was still unsure about whether they ever produced much.
The numbers, like @PierreB says, add up really well to me. A 0.1 MW producing 0.09 or even 0.07 MW at a given day is sign of real progress.
Time will show what more they may report
Hi Guys:
I would expect a “100 kW” system to be able to produce continuous output of 100 kW. Instead, they are now saying their machine cannot even maintain constant 100 kW output during a single rotation, no matter how strong the tide.
The 139 kW peak could be expected as quite possible with a 100 kW system, since high peak outputs can easily be achieved, but do not greatly impress certifying authorities. Example: I was able to briefly coax 5000 Watts from a generator I would rate at 1000 Watts, by driving into a headwind. The lower rating was for continuous output, with overheating being the deciding factor. A generator can only be run for so long at more-than-rated power before it starts melting the windings.
The fact is, with something approaching what was to have been a year of commercial operation, given all the times of peak tidal flow, and peaks of output, this machine was not able to measure a single rotation at an average output of 100 kW. That, to me, suggests this device has similar problems making a complete rotation as Makani.
Now I may have missed some of the fine-print, but my impression was they had experimented with the 100 kW unit for years, and it was ready for commercial operation, was to be installed and run. Period…
This would imply that the next major announcement would be to reveal how many MegaWatt-hours they had generated in the several months or year+ of “commercial operation”, then they would be able to cite a certain “capacity factor” as a fraction of what the same number of hours would produce at nameplate output of 100 kW…
Instead they offer further experimentation, more work on the design, and mostly some power measurements. What, they had never measured power before now? They needed a third party to measure basic performance? Sure, third-party data is good to see, but it had sounded to me, from the previous announcements, that it was simply going to be installed and run, not that they were still working on the design and modifying it to achieve basic performance.
In other words, this sounds just like their press-releases of years ago, except now they added a “third party” detail, which is important for them, but just one more formal technicality to the wider audience.
What I’m gleaning from this slightly-more-complete self-congratulatory press-release-data-dump is that, when you include reversing and non-peak tidal flow, the capacity factor is probably much less than half of the nameplate output, maybe 30-40%(?) at best, and worse, it cannot even make nameplate output for a single rotation, even during peak tidal flow.
This whole discussion started years ago, in response to Santos and Faust declaring in advance how this Deep Green project was a slam-dunk winner on the basis that it used something Joe could call “a kite”, and that Saab jet airplane engineers were supposedly involved. After more than a decade of their nonsense, I told them I would go on record that it would not end up as promised, not for any specific technical reason, but simply on the basis that they said it would, which I cited as a negative indicator.
It was a wager of sorts, offered in good humor and a slightly sarcastic and mischievous, yet fun, spirit. Remember guys, we have to maintain a sense of humor in all this or we’re missing out on the fun of the chase.
By the way, did you know there is another unrelated supposed “clean energy” project called “Deep Green”?
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/01/20210131-deepgreen.html
“Mining” manganese nodules from the seafloor.
Anyway guys, all I can tell you is I’ve watched decades of trainwreck after trainwreck advertised as futuristic energy breakthroughs, as long as the audience was willing to be satisfied with the details relegated endlessly to some nebulous “future” that remains perpetually “just around the corner”, but never quite arrives. Then the companies “quietly go away”. At some point you have to see the pattern. (or not…)