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661

Pierre, please provide some evidence for this accusation:

“numerous messages contained personal attacks of word deformations, or also censorship of some technical contents.”

You never provide the evidence, just accuse JoeF unfairly.

I have never even Moderated anything. Its this Forum that is Censored, and the evidence is publicly available. For example, JoeF has hundreds of technical messages publicly archived that I have been unable to post here due to repeated suspension of my account. I have not posted any message here that deserves the suspensions or blocks.

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Dave, it has been done many times already. Refer to the previous messages of both forums. I have no time to repeat and quote these indefinitely.

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Doug wrote: “Electricity in Upstate NY was so cheap that many homes were heated electrically… I am a bit perplexed that people are still talking about hydrogen.”

Let them talk. An interesting synergy is to space-heat with heat-of-electrolysis, with hydrogen-fuel and oxygen as commodity byproducts.

Phillip wrote: “the relative aerodynamic inefficiency of soft aerofoils”

This statement is only valid by unit-area of wing. By power-to-mass, a soft airfoil (sail, soft-kite) is most efficient.

664

AWES Forum Guidelines:

“Moderators do not preview new posts”

This is false. This post itself was previewed, if not blocked.

All my posts are previewed and delayed; and many rejected without any explanation.

I am not allowed to edit nor remove my old posts.

Moderation Guidelines violations are a major reason not to post in public here.

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See the discussion above for why your comments get previewed. See this comment for example.

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The complaint is Moderators do not follow Guidelines as written.

Discourse Guidelines call for TRL4 members to be trusted experts.

Windy Skies is anything but a trusted expert in AWE.

False Pretexts for previewing are not at issue.

======
Also, Rod miss-spelled “High Heid Yin” in praising Roland.

667

A post was merged into an existing topic: Makani assets auction + related discussion + eWind progress

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The post that was moved from here into the public space, without permission, was really about Cubic Mass Scaling Exponent, as a critical number in AWES design. It was not about Makani scrap as such.

I am unwilling to post in public here, as long as TL4 powers are wielded by non-experts unable to Moderate important technical AWE content helpfully.

669

Doug has reposted in public the post Tom Tospace moved from this hidden Topic; hidden because of prior unresolved complaints over Moderation Topic-Splitting by AWE non-experts.

Sorry if Makani folks are made to look bad by insensitive public exposure. I will stop sharing content even in hidden topics here.

Doug got the Topic-Splitting problem right:

“a lack of AWE creativity leading to wasting their energy recategorizing messages into new “topics”, while not contributing any real progress. I’m trying to think of any new progress in AWE since this new forum began - can’t really think of any”

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Well its not worth posting AWE content on this Forum if domain-expert Moderation is needed.

Let Tom Tospace feebly enjoy TL4 powers he neither earned nor manages well. Maybe someday he’ll do better in AWE. Now he’s removed Doug’s reposting. What a poor excuse for TL4.

Then Doug just posted this false claim-

“Dave Santos’ announcement many years ago, of an upcoming AWE-powered concert in that same year. The only minor missing detail was an AWE system to power it.”

There is abundant documentary proof in Joe’s archives that my AWES have made power for charging batteries, cell-phones, live and recorded music since 2007, including the 2012 claim Doug denies, perhaps haplessly unaware of. Let his false claim stand in public, with apathetic Moderation helpless at fact-checking.

By the way, Minesto is now grid-tied, which Doug did not believe would happen.

Minesto reaches historic milestone – delivers first tidal energy to the Faroese grid - YouTube

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Sorry, @kitefreak! I got a notification to review the post before it goes live and it just seemed like a normal post unrelated to “questions and complaints about moderation”. So i approved the post and put it in what I thought was a fitting topic. I was not aware, that people are chatting in hidden topics. If you want to converse privately, please use private messages! I think the hidden topics can still be accessed by anyone, if they have the link.
It was a nice post. Glad the piedes will become part of a museum.

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It is interesting to note that Santos seems to endlessly invoke controversy about nothingness, in his ongoing attempts to rewrite history to cover his previous misstatements. I’ve had to re-explain around his disinformation many times, as he denies even his own previous statements. He loves to make extraordinary promises about his supposed future activity, seemingly without any clarity regarding the likelihood of ever following through, such as announcing an upcoming collaborative project with “The Moab Sky Monkeys”, again, years ago, where they “would be” climbing around on a future-fictitious Santos kite network. Easy to flag such fictitious statements - they would require follow-through, which is unlikely on its face once you know the nature of the author of the future-fiction. As I’ve long-explained, it is easy to lie when it is about the future: Since it hasn’t happened yet: you could say you will be flying a frisbee on the moon next year and as long as it remains “next year” nobody can unequivocally shoot it down. Make no mistake, he went into great detail bragging about this fictitious “AWE-powered concert” including the year it was supposed to take place, the location (a certain park he named in Austin), and even the fact that he had a certain “country band” lined up as the music act. It was all one more Santos fantasy - there was never any follow-through, no concert in that park in that year, no country band, nothing. What Santos relies on is that people will forget his previous false promises, so he can go on to spew more false promises, thinking his credibility is enhanced through the impressive nature of his ongoing “future accomplishments” that never materialize. But people DO pay attention to the fact of the repetitive nature of these ongoing claims of future success - future - always in the future. He hates that. Today he literally tries to substitute claims of supposedly producing a couple of Watts to momentarily power a transistor radio etc., as a substitute for “the concert that never happened”. No Park, no country band, no stage, no P.A system, no amps, no lighting, no nothing, just more fakery. When he gets desperate enough he spews out a “Wubbo lives!” declaration, thinking again, that repeating this name somehow “rescues” him from the previous false statements. Yet people remember the false statements - obviously false when stated - it seems he is the only one who does not realize it. Today he spends his time squirming under wjhat was perfectly acceptable in his and Joe’s old forum: unfair moderation. His two main themes are arguing about nothingness, and bragging about what he “will do tomoirrow”. He’s never had much luck getting anything working in the field of AWE, so he tries to “dominate” the field through arguing and bragging about the future in online chat groups. You can see the results - endless posts about nothing except more arguing about more nothingness.
Regarding Minesto, which he and Joe had predicted as one more future success due to including “a kite” and being run by “jet engineers from Saab”, I used it as a test-case to show how full-of-it they were and still are. I told them that I predicted it would fail based on nothing but their statements that it would work out, saying I took their statements as a negative indicator, even though I could see no physical reason it should not work. The fact that the Minesto crew were finally able to actually attach their kite both electrically and physically, and supposedly squeeze out a few electrons, after all those details had supposedly been worked out long ago, does not indicate a successful product. Their stock has been in decline ever since they did not get their rig working this past summer as they had previously announced would happen. As I’ve long explained, trying to hold these two guys to what they say is like trying to hold onto a greased water-balloon - you cannot get a grip on anything they say, and they will deny it the next day.
Meanwhile, I have to say, it is a waste of time even attempting to engage them in a meaningful conversation.

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Doug is unable to provide quotes for his false claims. Joe and I have never naively exaggerated as Doug wrongly reports. All our old messages are archived, and the search function is working.

Doug was not even on-topic with his latest falsehoods about no AWE power and no music. Let this Forum be where Doug has his place, and the more serious players stay away.

It had been the practice to post sample hidden content here and in PMs to inform Moderators of what is lost by their TL4 abuses. Even that is too much now.

The most productive informative AWE posting has been driven away, and most of what is happening in R&D is not noticed here.

Reply to Comments below, added here due to TL0 posting restrictions-

kPower has claimed that Kitesurfers can easily jump with >10kW of power, and that the videogrammetry is a way to confirm, by calculating acceleration over distance.

Power kite experts consider this to be successful AWE. Its also ok to experiment at small scale for design and operational knowledge that will serve in the future.

Let Doug and Pierre despair over this reality, while kPower celebrates.

Pacific Sky Power FlyGen test - YouTube

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Let us not lose sight of the fact that no AWES for the production of electricity has been put on the market massively. So Dave shares with all players the lack of e.AWE success, not more, not less. That said he makes some interesting experiments and his point of view deserves to be investigated.

It is the reason why a description as complete as possible of his system would be welcome, not only useless quotes on Wikipedia because not leaving generalities, references not found in the old forum, but indicating precisely how the energy is harnessed…Help from scientists (Roland or others) would be welcome. Then such a (about 10 pages) document could be transmitted via emails or via the forum. A small prototype producing electricity is required.

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Years of these two demanding exact quotes while denying there was ever any problem with the Yahoo search function have made us weary of trying to look up quotes. These days everyone has acknowledged the search function was not working. Long tired of trying to find demanded quotes - we remember what was said.

“exaggerated” is a best-case scenario for you two - often it is just outright blatant intentional false statements. What about the time Joe brought home a tarp from a sign he found on the side of the road, and tied it up as an awning in his back yard? He claimed to have “taken a nap under the shade of a kite”, stating that, since the tarp wiggled in the wind, it “was” therefore “a kite”. That is not naively exaggerating? This is what you guys do - just lie, while doing nothing.

Nice - have fun with that.

This liar continually tries to lie about what I said, arguing not with me, but with what he falsely says I said. This was only a few hours ago - read what I said and stop lying. I told a 100% accurate story about a promised “concert” in a certain year, in a certain park, with a certain country band, all stated (as one more future accomplishment) in great detail by Santos.
Now he lyingly tries to say I was wrong due to one claimed instance, in a different year, NOT in the park, with NO band, country or otherwise, of a supposed “few plaintive notes” (exact daveS quote - hard to forget) supposedly coaxed from an electric guitar, supposedly powered by something he built, more likely powered by batteries, at a beach, not a park… Newsflash to Santos: Briefly forcing “a few plaintive notes” from an instrument at a beach, years later, is NOT your falsely-promised AWE-powered concert at a certain park in Austin with a certain country band in a certain year. A few notes from one instrument, years later, no band, no park, is a far cry from the falsely-promised “concert”. He LIES when saying I falsely said something about “no music”. I said “no concert”. I think he also said something about powering some transistor radio or something at a beach - again, powered by what exactly? Got a video? Power shown on a meter perhaps? And he claimed to have made literally a couple of Watts once I can remember, then went into denigrating power meters as a concept, saying skilled practitioners can see how much power a kite is making without having to turn it into electricity or measure anything - stupid conversations, deceptive claims of success where there has been none.

[quote=“kitefreak, post:673, topic:224, full:true”]Let this Forum be where Doug has his place, and the more serious players stay away.
It had been the practice to post sample hidden content here and in PMs to inform Moderators of what is lost by their TL4 abuses. Even that is too much now.
The most productive informative AWE posting has been driven away, and most of what is happening in R&D is not noticed here. [/quote]

He then goes back into his future threats of future accomplishments - this time by others - great daveS. Let us know how things are going in the year 2030 - this is his timeline to get anything going. Again, he doesn’t seem to realize these years will roll by and then people will remember what he said. What then? More lies of course!
It’s too bad this is a hidden topic - a great refuge for a liar - the best cover is when nobody can even find the lies if they try.

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Not true Pierre. Many players have produced over a kiloWatt, on meters. Not unusual. Santos, on the other hand, once claimed a couple of Watts, no meter, no way to verify. He falls into the camp of wannabes who try to power items that already have batteries, with no way to verify whether any power was actually provided by his dubious attempts at AWE devices. The level of craftsmanship is at a junior-high-school-level, at best, and the performance is pretty-much non-existent. The few videos he has provided last a few seconds at best, with no measured power shown. This falls into the worst-of-the-worst - sorry to say. Don’t mean to seem negative, but someone has to stand up against the relentless onslaught of AWE lies, most specifically from “certain people”. Please don’t become one of them - please think about what you say. Having said that, if I wanted to know some specific information about flying kites, I would consider Santos a reasonable source of information. The problem is, just knowing how to fly kites is NOT sufficient to form an AWE accomplishment or product. Yes it is true there is no real AWE product on the market, but that doesn’t bring all the very powerful experiments down to the level of a no-measureable-power-and-no-desire-to-measure-power daveS

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It is true, but it is starting to date seriously. The problem is not just to produce a few watts but to find something usable and scalable.

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Pierre I think I’ve been pretty consistent in saying, as with the funny black-and-white old-time-movies of failed attempts at powered flight, “we are watching the bloopers”.
Projects like Magenn and Altaeros, for example, were visibly lacking and could never have been expected to be successful, despite huge publicity from organizations such as NASA etc. who should have been expected to know better.
Now there have been times when I’ve become partially convinced that maybe some of the efforts were looking promising. Both McBlarney and the kite-reelers have shown significant yet intermittent measured electrical power output of many kiloWatts, at a scale large enough to be impressive, yet past skepticism is now seen as having been warranted for McBlarney, with kite-reeling still enjoying wide support, while suspiciously not seeming to progress much past the “demo” stage.
What you say above agrees with what I’ve been trying to explain all along: There are unlimited ways to make SOME power from the wind at SOME cost. The question remains whether a given method can even suggest the eventual ability to produce useful amounts of power economically. This means that a new device might produce power at a higher cost than desired today, but if indications suggest the cost could come down with further refinement, it could still be a winner.
If the conversation is about Santos, I’m sorry to have to say, his efforts do not rise to anywhere near any such level of promise. And you have spent a good deal of time flagging his tendency to lie, while such lying seems out-of-place in the realm of serious research.
Some groups measure huge amounts of power. Santos publicly disdains measuring power at all, or even producing it, saying it should be enough that he can fly kites and “feel” or “estimate” the potential power that could be produced. Could be if what? If he had any idea how to do it? Hasn’t that been the entire thrust of the AWE effort the whole time? Seeing the potential for huge amounts of power, and trying to figure out exactly HOW? This takes us all back to 2008 or so, back to the early days of hype and hope for AWE when we “needed” adult supervision in the form of a weather PhD to tell us there was actually wind up there, which was already well-known, and everyone thought it would be easy to render those dreaded “windtowers” obsolete in short order. Since then, the cost of wind energy has dropped in half, while AWE is still treading water, trying to sort out even the most basic questions of what to even try. Some teams seem to be making some progress, many have gone bankrupt or given up, and a few, such as our illustrious friend from Texas, brag a lot, but do next-to-nothing in AWE, and mostly just try to cause trouble and lie a lot. Yes nobody has a significant commercial product for sale yet, but that does not make the ones who try and succeed to some extent equivalent to the worst-of-the-worst who just lie, posture, and try to stir up trouble over trivia, promising everything while delivering nothing.

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What you say about Dave is true, but let’s try to see the problems with AWE: fly AND produce. If we take an eye about AWE solutions, we can see they are almost always inappropriate solutions for traditional wind energy: reeling would not be used, fly-gen (secondary turbines) not more, belt transmission not more and so on.
I don’t tell there is no AWE solution, but imagination combined to knowledge of drawbacks are required.

680

Agreed.

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