Where all roads lead to is like all roads in aviation lead to a configuration that looks like a bird. No matter how goofy the starting place, even Burt Rutan went back to nature’s basic design for flight. It’s not my fault the billion-dollar club people “just give up”. I have reasons for my statements. I do not make empty promises about things I will never do, the way you so often do. It is your psychological substitute for actually making any progress. Lying about future projects you will never actually do fills your need to accomplish something, without all the pesky details of having to DO it.
At least I have built a real airborne wind energy system that worked unattended and showed power output on meters.
AWE is Aviation, whose root, “avi” means bird. Energy Aviation.
The ST is not Aviation, we agree. No lie, it looks more like anal hair on a stick. Sorry.
You have long made the most extreme claims for the ST, more than any AWE promoter for any other scheme. No lie.
If you are as good as Rutan, maybe you’ll go back to something more like a bird in AWE.
Actually, the power kite seems close to an optimal form that cannot be changed too much without harm. Emerging isokites are round like a Frisbee, which is not a bad wing in order to accept wind from any direction, as the optimal trade-off.
Good Luck doing better with the ST.
Wonderful, now we get a lecture on words.
Another lie: no we do not agree that SuperTurbine is not aviation. If it is flying, it is aviation, Unlike most supposed “AWE” concepts, it is not restricted to airborne use - it works great in many contexts, as confirmed in third-party testing funded by The California Energy Commission - the standard to which you claim everyone should aspire.
Well in fact it IS one more of your never-ending lies.
The most extreme claim made by any promoter of any scheme in AWE is YOU declaring that you will re-power existing nuclear power plants at a GigaWatt level, using power-kites.
Considering the requirement for steady RPM, the immense power involved, that is quite laughable - a great example of how easy to identify your incessant lies are. I don’t think you can stop lying any more than an alcoholic can stop drinking - it is just how you are, and nothing can be done to help you.
The ST does not look like a bird at all, but now you claim, “it is aviation”.
Make up your mind.
Don’t confuse something that needs lifting with the aviation that lifts it.
Best Wishes,
Yes. And also a symmetrical reversible kite can have a high enough aspect ratio in order to work more or less like a power kite in regard to the lift-to-drag ratio. A modified Nasa Wing could do the job. The 3R Tri-Tether Tower could contain symmetrical reversible modified Nasa Wings, as for the forth and back reversible kite.
Yes, in fact if wing-loading by specific area is low, a larger round wing can equal or beat the L/D and power-to-mass of a long wing of higher wing-loading.
Many AWES designers are forced to operate their fine wings highly loaded, losing the supposed advantage they intended.
Could the 3R Tri-Tether Tower use isotropic kites like this?
Yes, tri-sails are the minimum polygon, however its assumed that more than 3 is wanted for large-scale plants for reasons of security and load sharing. So the concept “3r” is also known as “Multi-r” to cover all numbers.
Its assumed there will be no one best Network topology, but countless variations, just like the sailplans of sailing ships. A site topology may even vary over time, by season and ongoing refinement.
Dedicated kite flyers fly kites of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or more lines, with any number of bridles.
ST adds lift while producing power.
Just a more refined version of Laddermill.
Don’t confuse yourself.
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I do easily confuse myself, sorry.
Balloons or kites are necessary to hold the ST up. A lot of the mass rests at the base of the shaft. Try to scale up, and it just gets worse. A thick driveshaft has a Cubic Mass Scaling Exponent, so 2009 was pretty much the practical limit.
Nor is the ST is the bird form you re-ascribed to “Burt Rutan (who) went back to nature’s basic design for flight”, as you put it. Nor were his original canards so unbirdlike (canard being French for duck). In any case, keep trying, just like Rutan.
Perhaps Daisy’s TRPT or/and Serpentine US 6616402 figure 88 allow to mitigate this. Otherwise perhaps a fly-gen use could be considered.
Most of the ST’s I’ve flown do have two wings (blades) and a fuselage (driveshaft), like a line of birds flying in a migration pattern. Of course we modify the behavior a bit for hovering flight, allowing the wings to spin like a heck-of-a-lopter.
Most wannabe AWE wishful-thinkers tend to not grasp such simple and basic concepts.
Yes and you also claim there has never been a single instance of censorship on the old forum, when in reality, it was the main if not, at times, the only theme of the “old forum”.
And ironically, one of the main points of censorship was people were not allowed to say you lied. Joe maintained over and over, that we could not say something was a lie, because we did not know for a fact if the person, in their heart, set out to intentionally deceive. So you were allowed to lie to your heart’s content, and nobody was allowed to say anything about it. In the face of this censorship directed specifically toward anyone who would call you out for lying, you now deny lying AND censorship - but it is just another lie! You seemingly can’t stop yourself, like an alcoholic finding one more way to sneak another drink.
And when, after a decade of producing essentially zero useful or measurable power, no matter the number of supposed experiments, Joe slowly tries to “move the goalpost” so you both might even be included in the discussion: He decides that any use for “a kite” (remember the word, “kite”) somehow magically counts as AWE.
Hang-glider people often seek refuge from the sun under a wing, just as people standing next to a building or tree might gravitate toward a shady area, nobody pretends it is any version of power-production. But Joe? Well he gets sucked into lying too. The fact that a kite can block sunlight is attempted to equate to “air-conditioning” which takes power, right? So two guys who can’t figure out any way to generate power from a kite, after ten years of supposedly trying, can nevertheless claim to be participating in AWE, by virtue of any fabric incidentally blocking sunlight. He brings home a tarp from the side of the road and hangs it up in the backyard and then tries to claim he “took a nap under a kite”! That is then supposed to equate to producing “airborne wind energy”.
That is how far downhill you two have gone, willing to stretch the truth to the point of complete meaninglessness (simply lying), in a vain attempt to pretend you have any insights into AWE. Joe has no problem claiming his tarp “is really” “a kite”, not because it is supported by the wind - (it was supported by the structure it was attached to) but because it wiggled in the wind. (Back to the windidiot’s favorite theme: “Look! It Wiggles!”)
OK so you got this? Joe and Santos were so desperate for a way to pretend they participated in AWE, that they renamed “shade” as “energy”, renamed a backyard tarp as “a kite” and off-to-the-races" they were now magically “players” in AWE while still never having produced significant power from anything airborne.
So I hope this clears up the main topics under discussion in this thread:
- Whether the old forum was censored;
- Whether the two people running it lie.
Interesting how the two topics dovetail, since most of the censorship was to stop people from saying dave lied.
And now? Dave lies more, to say:
- there was no censorship
- he doesn’t lie
Geez you can’t make this stuff up!
Doug, Let the record show that you and Pierre were allowed to accuse lots of parties of lying countless times, without regard to proof of intent to deceive, and these posts are preserved in abundance. The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused. If there was censorship, bring forth a post that cannot be found in the public archives.
Pierre, Its true that Rod and Christoff’s torsion drives somewhat mitigate the Cubic Mass problem compared to a rigid drive shaft, by a Fractal Subdimension factor, but then they introduce rigid sub-shafts again, and these then scale poorly. If only it was practical to keep subdividing the shafts into ever more intricate Fractals, but its not.
Fly-gens scale poorly by a compounded Mass Scaling penalty. Not only do they require 3D mass in the form of generators, but these are of far greater mass-density, with the conductive tether itself a prohibitive affair. A very poor power-to-mass results at scale above a kW or so.
Meanwhile, simple rope-driving with no rigid parts does scale far better by power-to-mass and aero-drag, with slightly less than Quadratic Mass Scaling Exponent as the tether is extended to km scale. That’s not perfect, but its pretty cool.
Fortunately, AWE is not just a a technical debate, but there have been many willing developers who adopted various concepts and took them about as far as possible, so anyone can see the results. In the last twenty years we have seen all sorts of problematic ideas given their chance in the sky. There is not much mystery and controversy left. Only extreme-scale Kite Networks remain comparatively untested and less understood. If they fail, AWE itself is a sideshow in the global energy-climate crisis.
Please limit content in this thread to
Questions and complaints about moderation
Thanks
You are right of course. But here “Questions and complaints about moderation” concern above all the old forum 
.
That is a core complaint, that Moderation cares more about policing Topics than actual content. The Old Forum had no Topic Police because every author was free to choose the subject and Moderation had no Topic moving-splitting power. Discussions wandered freely without any Topic disruption by non-experts like Windy.
Rod has gotten his “limit content” wish here to a drastic degree, and yet pleads for even more self-limitation. He has Windy to thank, if not those who Windy oppressed.
Who has so much to say on AWES as to have no time to listen?
Nobody here.
Nobody here has infinite time to read either.
We’re here in common because we want to learn, share and improve AWES deployment in the real world.
Who here knows how to do all of this already?Nobody.
How can we improve our commons?
Helping each other.
The moderation team take that role from a sense of common duty. I am very grateful for their efforts, support and service.
The reason for separation of topics on the forum should be abundantly clear from reading the looping arguments in this single thread.
We don’t want to limit content.
We welcome diverse content on specific topics with depth and quality.
Happy New Year to all
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Rod: “Helping each other. The moderation team take that role from a sense of common duty. I am very grateful for their efforts, support and service.”
Start a New Topic in praise of Moderation then, if Topic Enforcement matters. This one is for Complaints. I am not grateful to Moderation here. They selectively enforce form over essence, putting technical content second. Letting Windy/Tom run amok with TL4 powers has been a disaster. Rod and Tallak have been spared by complicity, and have no sense of the damage. This Forum should be bursting with fresh content. I am not the only one withdrawn.
Overall, AWE is doing great, just as, or better, than hoped over so many years. I am not talking about lapsed goals of doomed AWES architectures, but the broad steady increase in kite knowledge and experience. 2020 was the best year ever for AWE. 2021 is looking to be even better.
Happy New Year!
Wubbo Lives!
This is both a relevant and realistic opinion. Finally Dave admits that AWE can fail: it is a key for AWE progress.
Happy New Year!