Questions and complaints about moderation + unlisted, mostly unmoderated, free discussion

Here is an example of two fairly new-to-us terms, TPL and MSE, that closely predict AWES potential. Power-to-Mass is still the top figure-of-merit, but TPL-to-MSE adds an explanatory layer of analysis.

Sommerfeld added MSE to AWE, and Weber added TPL, showing how most key terms are not coined by me or Joe.

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Doug is bluffing in vain if he thinks his ST is not subject to both his own action-demands and fresh aerospace analysis, where his ST has an unviable AWES MSE of about 3.0. All “Energy Drone” players are similarly doomed by combined TPL/MSE. Only Power Kites have viable TPL/MSE.

This is a prime example of key AWE content the New Forum cannot share as long as Moderation puts false Netiquette pretexts above serious Technical concerns, giving absolute TL4 power to technically-ignorant anonymous sock-puppet authority like Windy.

Dave shows his latest sketches, leading nowhere as usual. Just more of your standard “blah blah blah”, nothing to get excited about.

Dave, yours and Joe’s supposed modifications of well-understood “terms of art” ARE your best attempts at introducing any useful ideas and configurations. What you both offer is to shuffle word definitions around, like:
if Joe can call buried concrete anchors “wings” he is the next Einstein or something, and;
if you try to label gaps in a kite, stacked kites, or whatever your latest whacky yet untested kite-ideas as “network”;
you both think introducing a technical-sounding term, or just renaming mundane things, somehow brings your lack-of-good-ideas into the spotlight, as though trying to use big words is one more substitute for actual demonstrated success for any of concept you have introduced in now well over a decade of pretty much zero output, despite your endless blather.

Doug,

Review past emails carefully. Joe’s are all there for you to quote precisely, because your memory does not remember fairly.

Joe correctly called Soil Kites “wings”. So are many (but not all) boat anchors. The only “blather” is misunderstanding these cool anchor (delta) wings really exist (soil is a fluidic medium)-

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Its is exciting that MSE predicts both a power kite’s power-to-mass advantage, and explains the ST’s inability to scale since 2009. You then act as if MSE is beyond your ability to grasp (but its not), that only complaining and confusing AWE terms is what you can do.

So you struggle to understand and appreciate me, Joe, and kites; no problem, keep trying. Even better, share what have you done in the last few years to show the World your wind tech advancing, at least that you are still trying, and let’s all celebrate that.

Dave, all of your demonstrations are like a Giga scale sophism rather than a promise for a GW scale system. The last example of sophism is: 1) or 2) Predicted TPL/MSE favors power kite; 2) or 1)The Fractal 3r Dome is a GW scale AWES.
But said Fractal 3r Dome is not a power kite and cannot work like it: a brief look shows that its aspect ratio is very low. At the best it could work like any surface going downwind.

You fail to describe correctly your “conceptions”, arguing by using other of your “conceptions”, to finally shelter yourself behind archives that you know to be impossible to find or insufficient. Stop believing that you are cheating on anyone.

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Fortunately Pierre is mistaken about AR (Aspect Ratio). The NASA Power Wing and KiteShip OL are both Power Kites of Low AR. Nevertheless (“at Best”) they have pulled Science-Lab Sleds across Polar Regions for almost two decades (Inuit WindSled), and were banned from America’s Cup sailing (Oracle Challenge).

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TUKaiserslautern has closely reviewed low AR Power Kite aerodynamics [publication pending]. By having low Wind Loading at Low AR, these Power Kites maintain workable L/D at far greater scale than high L/D wings that do not scale, instead forced to claw desperately at higher AoA (Cl/Cd).

These technical issues are not understood on this Forum, and Censorship prevents clarification. Joe’s Archives are easily searchable and cover the engineering science well.

I have rated the aspect ratio of the NPW below to be around 2.2. We know that its lift-to-drag ratio is around 2.83, compared to 4-5 for a classic power kite, and about 4 for its aspect ratio.

The aspect ratio of the entire Fractal 3r Dome appears to be much lower than that of the NPW, around 1, which confirms what I have stated. 2.83², this gives about 8 for the NPW, against only 1 for Fractal 3r Dome, which can therefore only exploit drag.

In addition I do not see the use of dividing the whole into a multitude of smaller wings with their pulleys. It just adds complexity. Since a low aspect ratio wing can scale more then why not use a single larger one?

I therefore stand by my observations.

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Pierre,

A pulley for every 300m2 of Multi-r wing is not very complex. A common laundry-line has two. Compare with M600 complexity of thousands of parts for a 50m2 wing. You also missed the Multi-r designs without cell-pulleys. Its a huge design space with many variations you have not considered. I am only one of the developers making contributions; its a group effort, a work in progress.

You are mistaken about inherently Low L/D at Low Wing Loading for Low AR wings. Keep studying the precise Slow Flight aerodynamics proposed. Master Low-Re under non-dimensional constant most-probable-wind of a km scale Kite Network.

Soon you may even understand Dynamic Stall in Dutch Roll cycles as the ultimate dynamics. These AWE topics are increasingly explored in advanced AWE discussions that cannot happen here, under non-expert TL4 Moderation.

Lee’s UFO wing is quite good, with L/D ~20 -

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KiteShips OL is very Low AR, yet very powerful. kPower proposes far hotter Low AR SS wings by Flat Bridling to approximate UFO kite High L/D. L/D ~8 should be practical for a round flat SS wing.

Kites like Tan taught me achieve >50 L/D-

Feather Kite - Feather flown by a pro! | Facebook

This non-technical Scientific American student lesson gets the basic fact right, asking (you)…

“…how a Frisbee is able to fly through the air so well?”

Soaring Science: The Aerodynamics of Flying a Frisbee - Scientific American

Again, design for Low Wing Loading at extreme scale, and AR is not so critical as you presume. Its not even very critical at butterfly scale. Its all covered on the Old Forum, in great detail.

The New Forum is the place for naïve public claims that high AR and high L/D are more important to AWES than highest-power-to-mass, without debate. Go ahead and stand in public on unchallenged claims.

Windy should be ashamed that all he can do here is slow down technical posting, helpless to assist, wrongly claiming “unmoderated”. Rod is mistaken to call this “trash posting”, compared to what is seen in Public.

More Low AR High L/D pros-
Damon’s Feathers (windsweptkites.com)
One of my teachers-
Patrick Tan (windsweptkites.com)

I put some corrections below for my previous message.

The aspect ratio of the entire Fractal 3r Dome appears to be around 2. Some testing and simulations are required because the whole shape is very different and looks like an equilateral triangle.

The statements below are not supported. The values seem to be quite unrealistic. Have you tested them?

Moreover a Frisbee benefits from the gyroscopic effect. When it stops spinning it falls more quickly. I don’t know the kite equivalent. And the UFO you mentioned is not rotary.

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Dave, I appreciate and like a lot of the technical content you post

it doesn’t always have to come with belittling or denigrating or trash talking some other folks
I am not prepared to tolerate arrogance from even worthy AWES workers.

Just as we’ve seen 12 years of “the bloopers”, the current conversation is nothing but gibberish piled upon gibberish. All meaningless. Most everything you’ve seen and read about AWE is just such gibberish.

Yes Pierre, those L/D estimates are supported by the glide angles of those wings. Look closely at the videos. Yes I have owned and flown UFOs and IFlites, and know Sedgewick and Tan directly. Kite Networks will work as predicted by theory and precedents. You are at a relative disadvantage in experience and information.

Rod, you greatly tolerate your own and fellow Moderators in “belittling or denigrating or trash talking (or) arrogance”. Even worse, Moderators abuse TL4 power to not equitably tolerate others. Technical merit is secondary to emotional bias here.

No Dave, so I invite you to read the paper below in order to improve your basic knowledge about aerodynamics. See above all the pages 15 and 16 about the The Power Harvesting Factor ζ.

Of course, flexible wings might compensate their low zeta factors with lower costs per square meter of wing surface.

It is for comparison between rigid and flexible wings. As a possible following result NPW can have equivalent power (compared to that of a power kite with a higher L/D ratio) because their area in regard to their span is higher.

Your example of a Frisbee does not work because its lift-to-drag ratio is very low. It flies more thanks to its gyroscopic effect. Another (wrong) example is given by the discus throw below:

Its weight is about 2 kg. And the weight of a Frisbee is far lower but not neglecting. Your reasoning is as if you were indicating that a pebble has a high lift-to-drag ratio because it can be thrown far. Even a beginner would not make this error in reasoning.

Your estimations of a L/D ratio above 8 (even 20, even 50!!!) for a round kite is quite grotesque. If it was true we would be pulled in a kite surf by round wings.

And instead of your Fractal 3r Dome you could use a NPW like WINDSLED page 51 of https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336412796_The_International_Airborne_Wind_Energy_Conference_2019_Book_of_Abstracts

WINDSLED is a modular structure

A NPW with a L/D² of 8 is better than nothing, and a modular structure is simpler than a multitude of kites separated by pulleys. Said pulleys can work only if all the structure is is stretched, otherwise separator bars are necessary like those which we seem to see on your sketch which is very insufficiently detailed, and apparently based on false concepts (Frisbee, round kite with astronomical L / D …).

When? Where? By whom?

Pierre,

A Frisbee flies because it is a decent wing whose Gyroscopic Effect merely stabilizes. Disc wings are well known to fly since ancient times-

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Circular Wing Monoplane 250001-11 | Footage Farm - YouTube

Testing will prove Multi-r Kite Networks are not as hopeless as you fear.

I personally know Moritz. We met for long discussion in his Leuven office, and toured his Lab. I read all his papers carefully, and we fully agree on basic aerodynamics.

In the paper you cite, nowhere does Moritz does support specific misconceptions about AR L/D dependence. As an “old” paper, it hardly touches on Kite Networks, which have surged in interest since. It omits advanced aerodynamic kite pumping modes like Dynamic Stall, and other recent insights.

Moritz properly states the MSE issue, just like MarkusS and I do-

“A limiting factor for large airborne systems will be the square-cube law, namely the fact that the wing area scales quadratically with the length scale, while the mass scales cubically.”

He cites an Airbus 380 Wing Reference Model with an

" airborne mass of 39 tons to generate 34 MW. To be on the conservative side, let us reduce this hypothetical power to 30 MW"

This is less than 1MW per Ton for such a wing. (further below) Moritz cites SkySails at 2MW for a kite that weighs 0.2 Ton. That’s roughly equal power-to-mass (Makani’s 10-to-1 soft to rigid equivalence), but soft power kites are cheaper to buy and maintain, work in lower (more probable) wind, and survive longer (survive to payback).

Moritz gives large power-kites their due, and is optimistic about unit-scaling. He addresses Wing Loading (without using the term)-

" Flexible wings…made extremely lightweight for a given surface area. In case of a crash, they usually do not cause major damage…much safer to operate. They fly with moderate speeds and can easily be controlled by a human pilot (or passively). In contrast to this, rigid wings…need more mass per m2 wing surface. Due to their higher lift to drag ratio, they can reach very high velocities, which comes with the benefit of significantly higher power output per wing area, but also the danger of considerable damage in case of a crash."

“SkySails has reported traction power generation of up to 2 MW with a single kite system…an open question which single AWE system sizes would be most economical: any size between 40 kW and 40 MW seems possible, where the 40 MW system would need a wing with a span of about 100 m but would suffer relatively little from tether drag.”

kPower thinks 10MW unit-power is the sweet-spot, based on ship-kite expertise.

Don’t overlook how the extreme-scale iso-Kite-Network paradigm applies crosswind motion. A Kite Network the size of a small city might sweep “only” 1 km crosswind each way, and seem like a mere “wiggle” as Doug puts it, at low AR, but prove plenty to make power.

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Beware the “Sportscar Fallacy” in AWES design. We need a Truck.

Doug asked, with regard to Kite Networks R&D:

“When? Where? By whom?”

AWE should continue on the predicted curve (2011, WoW) of Critical Path Analysis, with SkySails100 as a 2020 AWES benchmark, to 2030 TRL9 utility-plant scale roll-out, the “Tehapachi Phase”, and thereafter become a worldwide major industry led by millions of pros. Some developers active now will hang on throughout these R&D stages. 2050 could be transformative, Etzler’s AWE Utopia. Time will tell.

In just 20yrs, Doug has witnessed a tremendous explosion in AWE knowledge and capability, mirrored by the Kite Sport Revolution. If only he was not so unreasonably impatient for AWE to mature even faster, he might be happy.

Dave, a L/D ratio of 2.4 for a round SS pilot kite flying at a high elevation angle of 67 degrees is given on

This L/D value ((2.4)² = 5.76) is not too far from NPW value. Practically I agree that such a value could lead to a significant power, even considering it is lower that the values you indicate (above 8).

So with such a value (L/D ratio = 2.4) you could plan an efficient giant AWES. Now you have imagined several ways to produce massive energy. It may be more appropriate that you go deeper into a single system, for example the Fractal 3r Dome, by trying to build a set of small dimensions to test the different ways of making a network, then a larger set, and so on.

I don’t see any progress, as the big-talkers go bankrupt. I just see you going on and on, saying the same things, but never achieving even the most modest results.
Extrapolate progress for the last ten years to ten more years.
It is interesting how you keep citing yourself having talked to one person after another, as though that constitutes progress.
Also interesting how you keep pretending that it is me, or my “unreasonable impatience”, that needs to be overcome, rather than realizing it is nature that must be harnessed.
I merely represent the voice of experience and reason. You wish experience and reason would just go away, and that establishing contact with people translates to accomplishing a viable AWE technology.
I think you guys are just spinning your wheels. Seems to me the discussion is still about the same after 12 years. Flygen? Skygen? Groundgen? Kites? Kitesurfing? Same crapola, different decade.
Just a bunch of confused people, grasping at straws.
I still want to know what we win in ten years, when nothing you say has come true.

Doug,

What “has come true” is SkySails100 in operation and Kite Sports continuing to explode and improve; an expected wonderful level of AWE progress. It’s been a great blessing to personally get to know so many major kite and AWE folks, to learn what they teach. How tragic it must be to know hardly anyone and not even be able to see any progress, not even one’s own efforts.

Pierre,

You are correct about the need for subscale Kite Network testing. Rod and I are active experimenters, along with a few others not known here. Mothra really was a Network of Tarp Kites, showing how Control and Scaling go together.

A sample of current subscale rigging soon to be tested-

You are close to grasping Low Wing Loading as the secret to higher L/D of Low AR wings. Its not that a circular shape itself gives the high L/D, it only gives the Iso-directional capability. High AR can be loaded more at high L/D, but its a delicate state, and at higher Cl/Cd values the long thin shape-advantage disappears. The highest Cl/Cd state is Dynamic Stall, the ultimate “POP” in a pumping cycle, and a roundish wing is very good at that.

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Dave, low AR wings can also reach my concerns about the power-to-space use ratio. Indeed for an equal kite span, the kite area is higher, and the swept area can be more fill. The lower efficiency (L/D)² per area-unit is a minor drawback compared to the advantages of stability, behavior by low wind, low wing loading, iso-directionality. Reversible kites such like I mentioned could perhaps work more easily.

However there is at least a concern: a kite like that on the photo below is not really iso-directional due to the stabilizers which are oriented in front of the real or apparent wind.

The kite you mentioned (photo below) has not this drawback but has a rigid frame:

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Perhaps a networked kite could be designed before any unit forming it, and not the other way around. Unity should flow from the whole.

That can perhaps explain the high lift coefficient of the more or less circular pilot kite as described below:

See also Aerodynamics of a circular planform wing, L/D ratio being about 3.
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/488/1/012005/pdf

Enough discussion here. New Forum Moderation is not equitable. This is instead the deserved place for Doug to write non-technical trash in public, unreferenced and inaccurate-

“Well we know k-Power isn’t about to do anything…”

"This discussion reminds me of Dave Santos’ announcement many years ago, of an upcoming AWE-powered concert in that same year. The only minor missing detail was an AWE system to power it. "

All untrue.

Pierre approves of Moderation and believes Doug’s claims. He is complicit. Let him refine his aerodynamics and aerotecture ideas with Windy.