Slow Chat

This reminjds me of when, as a lad, I asked my mom why they called it “drag racing”. Her reply: “Maybe because they have to drag their feet to stop?” I believe the real answer is they were racing on “the local drag” meaning a strip of street people “drag” up and down “trolling” for some fun on a Saturday night. I think the last person to use foot-dragging to stop was Fred Flintstone.
As I have pointed out more than once, the terms “lift mode” and “drag mode” have been in use for decades (or more) in wind energy. Kite-reeling would normally fall under the Savonius concept, except for using lift to artificially increase the area from which to extract “drag”. The tether is “dragged” from the drum. How do you know? Because it is dragged out at less than the speed of the wind itself (?)
The notion that newbies to wind energy decided in their innocent naivety to name the Makani concept using two levels of “lift” to generate electricity as a “drag machine” (because it “drags” its propellers through the air) is, I would say, about as astute and accurate as my young mom’s musings about “drag racing” being so-called because the driver drags his (or her) feet to stop - just not accurate.
Really, to my way of thinking, and I’m not saying it is correct, just my impression, all these “scientific” “papers” are meaningless until someone can demonstrate an economical energy solution. Right now in my neighborhood, people are swapping out rebuilt Bergey turbines for failed machines. Bergey turbines have enjoyed the reputation as “the best” or “most reliable” turbine in “small-wind” as long as I can remember. (Yet I can show you many pictures of missing blades, destroyed turbines, etc.)

They have been the choice for “scientists” for any project such as one that proved hydrogen as energy storage returns something like 3% of the energy put in, you know, learning about reality. One fatal flaw of the Bergey line has always been the furling cable breaks within the first few years of operation, so you can’t furl it in case you need to shut it down, or in preparation for an oncoming severe storm. Seems to happen to every single one of them. In all the years of NREL, Bergey, and a lot of installers helping to refine the Bergey design, no “engineer” or “scientist” had ever solved the furling cable failure issue. It was only recently that someone noticed the problem was the turbine trying to “push” the flexible cable into its “jacket” or conduit. As the old saying goes, “You can’t push a rope”. The cable would fold instead of going into its jacket every time the turbine furled on its own, and the constant bending of the steel strands would reliably cause the cable to fail, even if nobody ever used it. Well after 40 years of this scrutiny by the world’s leading “scientists”, the manufacturer, and everyone else, someone finally figured out you could add a spring or a weight, to keep tension on the cable from the ground, supposedly solving the problem. Looking back, this seems so obvious in retrospect, yet for years even the manufacturer’s tech support would tell you “Ahh, don’t worry about the furling cable - you don’t need it - they always break anyway - we just added it because at one point some municipality wouldn’t allow an installation unless it had a way to shut down the turbine” - that sort of thing.
So in all those years of scrutiny of the Bergey machines, nobody had stumbled across something that basic. And Bergey is about the only survivor in the small-wind “industry” since solar got so cheap. That is the reality of wind energy at least at a small scale, and I doubt if any scientific paper was involved in finding or even recognizing such a simple solution to what should have been an easily-identified cause of cable failure. There is an old saying in wind energy about the modern wind energy industry having been kick-started by a proverbial “farmer with a welder”. Seems to still be in play. In my experience, the role of “science” in wind energy seems to be more about analyzing and fine-tuning things made to work by practitioners in the field, rather than contributing actual solutions in terms of basic configurations. If AWE is still at the point of trying to figure out the difference between lift mode and drag mode, I don’t even know what to say.
Roddy I would not worry about what anyone “says”. Talk is cheap. If something works, it works. If not, then not. No idle bystander’s opinion will change that, no matter what their supposed credentials… Don’t let it worry you. It is not a true factor, and does not matter in the least.
:slight_smile:

This is true, but AWES were studied as aerial devices before being considered wind turbines. What do the means envisaged for kite-reeling and those implemented for the wind turbine have in common?

Hello Pierre
A kite-reeling system and a Savonius turbine have this in common:
A swept area that is “dragged” downwind. then must return upwind, using power to return upwind.
The downwind travel during the power stroke tends to reduce the power output by reducing the relative windspeed.
But the Savonius turbine has the advantage of steady, continuous output rather than intermittent, pulsating output.
When you see any new wind energy scheme, notice the tendency to think “this time it’s different!” The proponents of any new scheme tend to believe that none of the lessons learned in the last couple thousand years of wind energy apply to them.
For instance they tend to think that showing people a photo of 50 people, all drawing a hefty salary, should convince the public that they have a serious effort. And the general public may indeed be convinced by the group-selfie, but people who know wind energy know that there is only a single surviving manufacturer in “small wind”, and that survivor only survived by heavy government subsidies, heavy government regulation now at all levels that effectively outlaw all the competing companies, and a very lean workforce of just a very few people. Rather than trying to see how MANY mouths they can feed, they would be hard-pressed to hire even a single extra person, maintaining a skeleton crew, with no extra money to hire a single “extra” person. An average household uses maybe 1000 dollars of electricity per year, or maybe 2000 for heavy users of electricity. Any system that costs more than that could only be rationalized by artificial financial support, and would therefore not constitute an actual energy solution. There is no room for 50 people whose combined “talents” produce nothing useful for any purpose. No small wind company who expects to survive would be issuing press-releases about “renting office space”. Such a situation of needing to support that many “office workers” would in itself spell doom for any such startup company. Any small company that expects to grow needs to have a natural built-in potential profitability or at least a clear path to profitability. If they can’t power a single home with AWE, why would anyone believe they are about to power hundreds, thousands, or millions of homes? Well as I’ve observed over the years, the reason they would believe it is because their main source of information is the hype issued by the companies, presenting (so far anyway) a one-sided, unrealistic story. The “Dr. Pater Harrops” of the world (and it goes downhill from there), simply have no experience in wind energy to understand the repetitive and typical nature of the claims they are seeing, let alone recognizing claims even more absurd than any previous example. But, just as a thousand wannabes chasing the Savonius concept based on the attractiveness of its simplicity do not ruin the case for legitimate wind energy technology, the many failures of wannabe AWE practitioners in no way negates the viability of AWE as a concept.

OK now realizing that nuclear fusion is just a fancy way of boiling water, there are several fusion energy companies emerging, funded by the usual billionaires. One is called “Helion”. If fusion gets traction, AWE and many other clean energy efforts might be doomed. But don’t worry too much about Helion. How can we tell? They have a group selfie! You’ve seen the rest of that movie! :slight_smile:
image

OK this is in “News Coverage” because even though it is positioned as “news”, actual news is about things that really happen:

Hydrogen Airships Promise Zero Emissions at One-Quarter the Price of Plane Cargo

LINK:

Note how this “story” checks all the boxes: “fight climate change” “hydrogen”,“zero emissions” “a quarter the cost”, “increased payload” - well if it were powered by AWE, it might be zero emissions. Anyway, maybe they should add “3-D printing”, “provides broadband”, ya know…

Now, I’ve always been a huge fan of huge blimps - or just blimps and airships in general, and this article sounds very exciting!

Except for one thing: I’ve been reading similar articles for over 50 years, and never seen one come true. There is an announcement like this every 3 or 4 years it seems. They’ve all sounded “very exciting” with no apparent reason why they won’t actually happen, but they never do. In our somewhat similar field, we are used to this. It’s always the same thing: big press-release, followed by… NOTHING.

I’d like to think this one will be different, but the pattern is 100%, and undeniable…

Oh well, it’s fun to dream. I hope this one comes true. (But I won’t hold my breath!) :slight_smile:

Update: I checked out their website:

They do in fact check more trendy boxes:

  1. Providing wi-fi to Africa and underdeveloped regions
  2. delivering hydrogen fuel as cargo
  3. disaster relief - how could I have left out “disaster relief”?!?!

Seems like every press-release breakthrough has such obligatory “attributes”.
“Just in case” it is not useful for its intended purpose, they have a “plan B” (providing wi-fi - think “Altaeros” - after all that AWE hype, they now have one blimp, powered by an extension cord from the ground (diesel?), and purport to be the answer for bringing wi-fi to undeveloped regions…)
And “just in case” Plan B doesn’t work out, they can deliver hydrogen as cargo…
And “just in case” that falls flat on its face, they will be available for “disaster relief”! Did they miss anything? What about a group selfie? I haven’t checked.

Hi Doug,

Perhaps an AWE possibility with a design something like LTA Windpower? On the website the announced air speed is 280 km/h (78 m/s) , so likely leading to a high glide ratio, hence perhaps the possibility of a high angle of elevation, and a constant positioning in altitude to avoid takeoffs and landings, except in the event of a big storm.

That said the fastest speed for an airship is only 115 km/h (32 m/s), so far below 280 km/h.

Basically airship could be the simplest solution, above all if the risk of hydrogen use is strongly mitigated: a lighter than air with also aerodynamic lift (wings) carrying one or more conventional wind turbine(s) …

A “designer” solves wind energy… again…

Article includes a quote from Mike Barnard.
Know-nothings, “improving” an art about which they have not the slightest clue.
Some things never change.
:slight_smile:

Another M. Barnard’s article: Dodgy wind? Why “innovative” turbines are often anything but

The designer led to Robert Murray smith designing a whole bunch of experimental designs. The original didn’t work but his bodging effort are plain to see. Plenty of room for design exploration. He even made a wind wall with pc fans which I find to be awesome. There an obvious threshold to meet but with a little effort anything’s possible. Much like baking cakes or a good roast.

HYPE CYCLES & tech: Saw this opinion on hype cycles:

while reading this article by a helicopter developer about EVTOL “flying car” type vehicles.

The example they use is the Joby flying car effort. Joby was an early AWE player, but quickly gave up on that idea.

(No axe to grind here, just thought the articles were relevant and interesting for AWE.)

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When you live on a ranch in Southern California, you might be a former president, or you might be me. Instead of Santa Barbara, I’m in the high desert though… Well one thing you learn pretty quick is how many helium balloons there are out there, flying every day, because you will keep finding them on your land. Today I saw something white out in front of my house, walked over and picked it up, and it turned out to be a totally tattered-to-shreds balloon. Maybe it was it a high altitude wind experiment.


Can anyone guess why this balloon is SO tattered?
Well, I have a possible explanation:
I think it probably rose to an extremely high altitude, where the air pressure was very low, and so it expanded to several times its normal size, and possibly even FROZE, because it is winter AND it gets very cold at high altitudes, and at some point, it got SO big it just totally exploded like nothing ever seen by mankind, and was ripped to shreds!
After that, it fell to the comparatively low elevation of 3600 feet, coming to rest in my front yard.
So let that be a lesson to you crazy kids - any high-altitude balloon is a potential ticking time-bomb. It could explode at any moment, without warning, and totally shred itself (and maybe you) to absolute smithereens!
So AWE people, be careful with your high altitude balloons, and for God’s sake, stay away from the darn jet stream, before you really get hurt!
Oh also, as long as I’m posting photos, and speaking of totally shredding, here is a guitar I picked up recently:

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Happened to run across this. Thought someone might find it interesting.

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Seems redundant to celebrate merely flying a kite in a figure-8 after all these years of AWE attempts. I also note when I checked the website Kitekraft - About the “papers” use the term “drag” to describe a machine that uses lift in many ways. In wind energy, the term “drag” as applied to any device or design (such as a Savonius cup-anemometer-type machine), traditionally refers to working surfaces being “dragged” (or pushed by brute force) to travel downwind, to distinguish from the normal use of “lift” (airfoils) to produce power directly. I do understand how the newbies think “drag” refers to “dragging a propeller upwind through the air” but the term “drag” or “drag device” with regard to wind energy is already long-established. It means working surfaces traveling downwind, NOT upwind. A closer design space to a traditional “drag” machine is kite-reeling, where the lift of airfoils is nonetheless used to create a “drag” type of machine (working surfaces travel downwind). Reminds me of my mom’s attempted explanation of the term “drag-racing” - “because they drag their feet to stop?” Nice try Mom! :slight_smile:

True, but the technology of AWES is different. Almost all the scientific publications are based on M. Loyd’s seminal paper: “Crosswind Kite Power”. So they qualify fly-gen crosswind AWES as drag devices, because the thrust of the turbines onboard adds drag, precisely 50% drag added to the drag of the kite and tether for an optimized device, the kite speed becoming 2/3 with turbines, as for reeling (yo-yo) AWES but for another cause which is tether downwind move at 1/3 wind speed for a more or less optimized device.

Yeah, well, I’ve never read that patent. Know why? Because everything in it is obvious, and always has been. Anyone in wind energy has always known that too. Only people unfamiliar with wind energy would be impressed with such a pedestrian observation as the idea that a kite could produce power flying across the wind. Meanwhile as I’ve been saying for 13 years, if you have to SAY “crosswind” it means you are not familiar with wind energy since all wind power has been crosswind for 1000 years or more. And by the standards of AWE, a regular lift-based wind turbine would qualify as “drag-based”, since the generator causes “drag”, slowing the blades to a fraction of their unloaded crosswind speed. All that shows is that Loyd was one more newbie to wind energy who knew nothing of the established terminology. Nothing more.
Every newbie to wind energy thinks their idea makes things “different”. Just like the stock market - there is a well-known saying in investments: “This time it’s different!”. It;s when newbie investors hit a lucky strike and are making so much money they think their investment can never go down. The veterans try to warn them, but the newbie will insist “this time it;s different”. I’ve explained all this about lift and drag many times now. It still seems like nobody even understands the first thing about wind energy here: A lift-based machine versus a drag-based machine, according to well-established terminology. I feel like I’ve done what I could to educate the enthusiastic perpetual newbies in AWE who have yet to power a single house after well over a billion dollars wasted so far and counting. At least people are having fun! :slight_smile:

Maybe we should coin a new terminology for AWE?

I agree the naming is odd, though in AWE it is quite precise. My guess is that it is named after which direction relative to the lift and drag of the kite that the harvesting force is generated.

Maybe something like «Downwind AWE» and «Braking AWE» would indeed be better. Had we only said this in the 70s it might have stuck

I think saying Loyd is a noob is not very accurate. At least he put in words something that was not really common knowledge at the time, even for wind people

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Tallak: Here’s a photo of a 1500-year-old windfarm


LINK:

What is it, if not kites traveling crosswind?
The problem with AWE perpetual noobs, or at least the worst examples, is they are allergic to facts, ignorant of the art of wind energy and its multi-thousand-year path of development. Wanting to make up their own terminology at odds with established terminology in wind energy, without even being aware of that fact, is just one “canary-in-the-coalmine” of many. To then be in denial of such a simple fact when it is pointed out is another canary, but by that point it is expected. Noobs just act like noobs. Some things never change. I used to wonder the same thing as a kid - how could “lift” be pushing the blades forward? Shouldn’t it just push them back? Takes a while - you gotta get up to speed on what has been learned in these thousands of years. In wind energy most noobs dig in their heels and stay that way. It;s just the way it is, and has always been, as long as I’ve been paying attention anyway.

Hi Doug,

Wind turbines do not move (even considering that the blades rotate), unlike the crosswind AWES.

Wind turbine blades DO move: 100% crosswind, in a circular path. That has been in effect for well over a thousand years. Before that (Ancient Persia), they moved in a circular path downwind and upwind, which is known as a “drag” machine.

Just wanted to through this out there. As I know it has potential uses in Awe.
Be that VAWT, HAWT.
Newton’s third law.
Magnetic induction
Lenz law
Faraday law.
Magnetohydrodymanics
Electromagnetism

At 3:18 minutes in it has a spinning top with fluid inside.
Much like a previous idea I dropped in AWE with Generator using gravitational potential / kinetic energy, with falling mass of ball bearings or magnetic fluid
It must be possible to have spinning top version Working on centrifugal forces. Combined with the levitation. To come up with something almost Sifi esque in nature. I’m aware of maglev generator. Even one appear in the Thor movie intro at 2:42 minutes. It just a question of how AWE wishes to advance. You could end up with something look like.


See blue arrow for reference. Also
Newest Maglev - YouTube
I’m not sure if AWE has a magnetically coupled design. I’ve seen design of some VAWT turbines have levitation elements. As well as kinetic storage systems using maglev elements. So my question is is this something AWE could look at? Especially because of its sustainability factors, easy of manufacturing and assembly, scaling potentials, and so on.
I just like to throw this one In the ring and see what people think.