The Dave Santos Quandary

Here is a private message chain (yes, sorry, I shouldn’t make that public) in response to a post that I rejected, based on not allowing more than 2 comments per day (Questions about Moderation - #200 by Windy_Skies)

Note the last few comments, where Dave says he is, my interpretation, harassing people off forum and where I say that could result in a long ban.

The topic I rejected:

“Show your work” is a requirement a math teacher might make of their students. And my being anonymous or having no stated expertise are just sticks he uses, in my opinion. If those sticks vanished he would find other sticks to use.

I am in two minds about this. I don’t care so much anymore about the spam, I think, as I think that mostly goes to the spam inbox of the recipients.

It’s the inability to recognize the problems with the writing, despite pointing this out since the end of 2018, and then the refusal to be coached on it. You might say my requirements are curtly stated or excessive, I would counter the unsourced claims are excessive.

One option is to ignore all of this and let things fester and hope things improve on their own even though they haven’t since 2018. Maybe it’s like trying to get a colorblind person to see the difference between red and green, and the only expected outcome is frustration for both parties. I don’t like this option because it degrades the experience of everyone on this forum not called Dave. And then there’s the whole harassment issue.

Another option is to give him a long suspension, I’m thinking 2 years, and at the end of that take another look. I don’t like this option because he could conceivably improve the forum, if he was open to coaching.


You are no math teacher allowing the student to show work, but a sadistic sock puppet preventing me from showing my work, for years on end.

It is delusional that all the complaints about you go into Spam Folders and that you are somehow the secret protector of the “Reader”.

Of course, I can improve this Forum, given a fair chance. If not, let AWEurope be held accountable, since the known Moderators are members.

Censorship by Windy Skies here is most of all the fault of Kristian Petrick and Roland Schmehl, if they choose to do nothing to condemn the practice.

I will just say this: His repeated lies that I was never censored in the old forum is easily revealed in my email box, with hundreds of excruciatingly-long discussions with Joe, Dave, and even Rod about why my messages had been deleted. The emails are so long and disjointed that even trying to cut-paste them here is almost impossible. Without spending all day going thru these messages, here’s just one excerpt where Joe Faust “explains” why a message of mine was deleted - it was deleted because I had pointed out one more lie from you-know-who:

Without admission by author, intention to deceive cannot be determined without the all-knowing Being report. For such reason polite technical communities do not spend time getting into the business of proving intention to deceive or non-intention to deceive. Technical communities may find many errors here and there without having to bother with getting into playing the role of an all-knowing Being. You seem to press the matter: it seems to me that you are wanting some mere human to play the role of an all-knowing Being for judging peoples’ intention; such would be asking for something that cannot occur. Even lie detectors after some expressed writing has a possibility of error. The practical result for the AWES forum: ever pressing to declare that people are intending to deceive others in the forum is taken as against the polity of the forum and destructive of the purpose of moving forward on RAD. "

The lie in this case was you-know-who declaring that the stoppage of the Altaeros project was “just a delay”, which can now be seen as a false statement, intentional because he had no evidence of that, but was just making it up.

By the way “RAD” was Joe’s acronym for “Rapid Airborne Wind Energy Development”. (Which was one more inaccurate statement (lie?), since there is nothing “rapid” about AWE development.) One thing I did learn from these exchanges was how people can lie endlessly, by simply redefining words.

Here’s another excerpt from an email from Joe:
“Meanwhile I am setting your membership to “No Posting” status; this means that messages won’t reach the Messages and won’t reach the “Pending messages”.”

Here’s another excerpt of that same email from Joe:
“​Again, Doug, your posting ban has zero to do with the potential AWE tech content.”

Here’s another:
“Doug, your timing is not respectful. Your moderation went in stages. The final stage overcomes the earlier stages. No matter what you send–you never gave me permission to block your anti-policy matter-- in the active contemporary stage will not be forwarded. How to have you back in the living room directly has not known solution at this time; since you did not allow blocking your anti-policy matter, moderation went the final stage of banning.”

And here’s one from Rod, who had suddenly “gained” a position as “moderator” explaining why HE had also censored me on the old forum.
" I’m loathed to do this as you take up plenty of time already Doug.

Like the kids aren’t enough a distraction … You dick around too much on the forum.

For an undecided time you’re on moderation.

None of your gip and no gripe.

We all get that Dave S is a self inflated twazok on a holier than thou trip and needs reeling in.
(probably syphilis)

We all only have 24 hrs in the day.

Rod Read

Windswept and Interesting Limited
15a Aiginis
Isle of Lewis

When Rod decided he should be a moderator of the old forum and start banning posts, was when I realized he was hopeless, and my opinion of him dropped precipitously.

If anyone were to read through these ridiculous and super-complicated series of emails between me, you-know-who, Joe Faust, Rod, Pierre, Wayne German, etc., they would assume the “conversation” belonged in a mental hospital. All it consists of are Pierre and me pointing out all the lies of the liars, mostly you-know-who, and long, meandering, insane-sounding “reasons” given by Joe why I was censored, my messages deleted, etc., and statements of you-know-who’s impending grandeur and all of his vast accomplishments-of-the-future.

A lot of them I happened to notice were repetitive, insistent bragging by you-know-who about the huge significance of his attachment of a Seiko self-winding watch to a kite, as an effective airborne wind energy device, if that gives any indication of the level of absurdity involved.

It was amazing to see a technical discussion degenerate into long philosophical diatribes from Joe about how we couldn’t “prove” that inaccurate statements from you-know-who were just outright lies.

And it’s amazing now to see you-know-who STILL claiming I was never censored on the old forum, when me being censored was in fact probably the main theme of the old forum!

When it comes to my “idiots, idiots, idiots” description, (starting when I met so many at the first “High Altitude Wind Energy Conference” in 2009), of many, if not most, of the people drawn to pursuing AWE, it only gets worse when we get to the people who can’t really DO anything in wind energy but nonetheless feel compelled to run supposedly open “forums” which are actually meant to give a voice predominantly to the people who run them, where they can promote their own ignorance and confusion, endless lies, and outright insanity.

What they can’t handle are facts of any kind. They would rather argue for weeks on end whether one of their lies could be defined as a lie or not a lie, or whether someone was censored and why, than discuss anything meaningful because they have nothing meaningful to say. This was true in the old forum, and remains true here - just look at this nonsense Windy has just published here! OMG!

Like I said recently, Windy against you-know-who is like an unstoppable force against an immoveable object - kind of funny to read, if you have the time to waste, but sad in that you just have to wonder who is the most insane. :slight_smile:

I confirm what is said. In addition, a pernicious mechanism was implemented in the old forum: systematic distortion of comments during disagreements, which inevitably led to protest through justified descriptions of lies, which led to the censorship of the messages concerned.

Always concerning the old forum, in the last comment Doug describes some other unfortunate behaviors that hardly surprise me and confirm what I knew.

It is a reality. We now know that many people, including myself, continually receive unsolicited emails.

Since you-know-who favors this type of communication, I wonder why he is rushing to re-enter the forum.

No one is “rushing to re-enter the Forum” if wrongly banned for a year and a half. The outside email complaints and technical sharing were a natural corrective. In fact, there was much more AWE content shared outside than what was allowed on the Forum. Pierre can attest that a lot of AWE news never did appear here, because of censorship, and he did not forward any of the blocked content.

Where is Doug’s fully copied (dates, headers) reference for “lies”? Again, to the best of my knowledge, Doug was not censored like I am, but early on some very profane emails by him were put in a public folder because JoeF was trying for Forum where school children would not be exposed to angry profanity. I believe that these emails are publicly archived, and that in no way were Doug’s AWE ideas ever suppressed. JoeF soon gave up moving Doug’s crudest posts, as the social Web became viciously trolled.

I never have Moderated any AWE Forum, New or Old, but Rod did briefly Moderate the Old Forum, but was so heavy-handed, including with Doug, that he was removed. Now Rod seems content with how Windy Moderates.

Neither Doug nor Pierre can produce any censored content in evidence against JoeF, ut I can produce ample evidence. It is not enough to denounce the Old Forum, with no documentary evidence of Censorship, while embracing Censorship here. Doug should have Censored posts in his Sent Box, if they exist, and Pierre should understand the moral need for such evidence.

Technical Censorship on any AWE Forum is unacceptable. What is most being censored is the technical divide between AWEurope ventures raising millions by claims that are not being debated on merits, and the following emergent AWE paradigm, with both EU and US supporters, highlights as follows:

- Kite Networks as a key scaling strategy v Single Kites on Single Anchors
- Crosswind-Pumping as covered in USP3987987fig5 v Reeling Cycles
- Dynamic Stall Cycles as the primary pumping mode
- Dynamic Soaring principles apply in the Kite Window
- EM Theory as critical mathematical-physics of Power Kite Pattern Flying
- SS Power Kites as having highest power-to-mass and lowest MSE

Even if JoeF had censored, he was not anonymous, but an acknowledged expert in Kites beyond what his accusers ever will attain. The issue here is not revenge by Doug, Pierre, and Windy, for unproven allegations, but whether AWEurope will continue to allow extreme technical censorship favoring AWEurope insiders, by an unqualified sock-puppet, in public venues under direct and Member control, including IEA T48.

There was nothing wrong with my posts, deliberately posted to “Lounge” to evade Windy’s claim they are not engineering related. I have done nothing wrong. Windy, whoever he is in real life, is the wrongful agent. The “Quandary” is over Windy Skies pretending to be qualified as “coach” in AWE discussion, when he himself does not seem to have the expert standing or temperament needed.

Just getting funnier every year this show.
I think we can all agree that I’m crap at being a forum moderator and definitely have no time for it.

As stated, I found hundreds of emails regarding me being censored in the old forum. And most of the rest were about lying by YOU-know-who. Obviously, it’s pathological. I did show quotes in my post above. When I tried to copy the whole emails, they were so full of extra coding not visible in the emails they were unreadable, for whatever reason.

The idea that you are STILL denying that i was ever censored or deleted in the old forum is so absurd it does not even merit my continued attention. I have wasted quite enough of my life responding to complete idiots and liars on the internet, especially liars fixated on lying about their previous lies, which is what the old forum became.

It’s really funny to see you not missing a beat after so much time off. Like a little wind-up toy that just keeps repeating the same stupidity, and now you have an antimatter twin to deal with.

I’d say, don’t expect any responses from me - have fun doing whatever it is you do, and making outrageous claims about all your “in-the-future” “accomplishments”. No more time to waste on you or your endless nonsense. Go talk to your “100 AWE VIP’s” They are “very important persons”, or is it “very idiodic poseurs”?


Hello again, old friend. To my great relief, you do not provide a copy of any “lies” you fear I made. All I have ever felt is one should keep an open mind and reason from evidence. If JoeF did wrongly censor something worthy of yours, let the evidence stand.

Before I get cut off due to “Posting Limits”, please include the complete messages, or at least Message headers with dates, and also what it was you posted that seemed so offensive to the Moderator (JoeF). Same goes for me and my accusations against Windy, Tallak, and Rod. Then anyone can fairly decide who is right or wrong about censorship in AWE, and what public effect it is having on the R&D field.

The great news is that AWE has the same fantastic promise as ever. The disagreement is whether the 2030 timeframe that the WoW Critical Path Analysis predicted seems “fast” to some, and “slow” to others. To me and Joe, 2009-2030 is “fast” compared to the “slow” century-scale between Sir Cayley and the Wright Brothers.


Get Lost. no time 4 U