Why non-crosswind type is not popular?

It will probably affect scaling ability, probably inversely correlated to reliability, the pyramids in Egypt are still standing after all. That’s beside my point though. The rest of your comment maybe also. You can work around scaling and spacing issues just by going for a different niche, so for now that’s not that important. Start selling stuff that breaks every hour and is too expensive and you won’t find many customers in the short time your business can survive.

It’s like a survival situation where your first priorities are oxygen and then water, and shelter last. Worrying about if your design can scale takes away from time you should be worrying about how to not make it crash. As this is also an iterative process where you’re mostly building on previous knowledge and stumbling into new insights it’s also unknowable. Maybe the day after you’ve figured out how to not make your kite crash you get an idea on how to not make 10 kites crash, but you maybe couldn’t have had that idea before having the requisite knowledge and figuring out how to not crash that first kite, or the money to implement the idea because you were focused on the wrong thing.

Oh I see @Windy_Skies are you saying a single line single kite design is more reliable than a network kite design because of part count?

:joy::rofl::stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye::joy::ok_hand:
Oh that is marvellous well done
What a crock o shit

Genuinely do you want to claim, a design covered in single point failures with a history of crashing into supermarkets after multiple millions of Euros :euro: effort is more reliable and less of a risk than a stable, low altitude, lightweight, cheap, multiline redundant, mechanically autonomous kite with a safety back line anchor?

What a belter
Better than any comedy you’d get on telly thanks

I haven’t mentioned any particular design?

Fair enough
You do make a good point
Efficiency with materials inversely correlates to reliability
1 line = risky

So let’s go back to the original point in question this forum thread was tasked to answer…
Why is non-crosswind (non-yoyo) not popular?
Fear

That’s my assumption why.

Fear motivates me to work on kite turbines.

Popularity is baked into education. Fear of being the out-gang. Fear of not getting approval. Fear of not publishing. Fear of not getting funded.
You have to do work based on what’s always been done otherwise you are potentially accusing your seniors of poor work (or some twisted logic like that)
Hey I might be wrong but
Can anyone on this forum actually stand up for the opinion of a yo-yo team?
Not 1
When the whole industry sector is unwilling to be represented in open discourse
Something is wrong
Fear

Might also be something to do with the likes of me spouting off without good enough evidence and scaring folks away from playing. Apologies if that’s the case. I’ve never really been cool.

The landscape of wind energy is littered with the thousands of failed ideas of armchair geniuses who thought they could quickly outperform what has evolved over thousands of years. The reason why “non-crosswind” is supposedly not popular, is that the current generation of armchair geniuses do not even understand what the term “crosswind” means. Or lift, drag, really anything pertinent, is uncomprehended, for the most part.

The participants of this forum understand “crosswind” to mean “crosswind window” or “moving crosswind” and not rotating turbines, blades or kites.

Exactly. Silly, huh?

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Here! Yoyo remains one of the simplest concepts out there. Any single kite design may win out just due to its simplicity. More kites are better in theory unless kite handling is also taken into the equation. Then the picture is not clear.

I say just keep the options open. Everyone pursue what they find more promising. Share thoughts and experiences. Progress…

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https://www.linkedin.com/in/andré-pereira-3825381a3/recent-activity/shares/

Good work. A detail:
image

Figure 3. Prototypes of noncrosswind systems. Rotational/rotorcraft: 1—Kitewinder [21]; 2—Windswept [22]; 3—someAWE [23]; 4—Bladetips [24]; lighter-than-air: 5—Omnidea [25]; 6—Altaeros Energies. Reproduced with permission. All rights reserved.

2 and 3 have been interchanged. I mentioned this on my comment (see Linkedin link above). On the substance it can be discussed about the quality of “crosswind” for rotating devices.

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Based on the number of institutions with developed technology in each category, a
clear preference for crosswind systems may be identifified. In fact, Loyd [11] showed that
the power output was larger in these systems due to the increase in relative velocity of
the flflying wing—see Section 3.1. For these reasons, the analysis conducted in this paper is
restricted to AWE crosswind systems only.

I don’t want to be a grumpy old git - but sometimes I struggle.

AWE seems to have, among many problems, an inability to comprehend basic terminology, or indeed, reality. A regular wind turbine is pretty-much 100% “crosswind”. That’s why they work so well. Kite-reeling is less “crosswind” and more “downwind”, similar to a Savonius turbine, using a part-crosswind, part-downwind lifting surface to create a larger “virtual surface” that travels a pulsating downwind path with an upwind return path, which is essentially what has always been called “a drag machine” operating on the principle of a “drag-based wind energy device”.
The idea of calling a Makani airplane a “drag device” in wind energy seems absurd, and ignores the most basic categorization in wind energy: A lift device versus a drag device. This is more basic than a child learning their ABC’s - this is more like teaching a preschooler how to hold a crayon. Yet the thousand “really smart people” remain unable to “hold a crayon” and understand even the most basic aspects of wind energy.

Crosswind: EVERY wind energy device is either 100% crosswind, OR is effective in approximate proportion to whatever extent that it IS crosswind.

This is NOT new information. This has been true since Biblical times when crosswind sailboat sails were arranged on a frame to travel in circles to perform useful work 2000 years ago in the Greek Islands. Here’s an ancient windfarm: kites flying a circular path:


:

Hi Doug, this discussion has been well established in the forum, beginning by yourself. @tallakt made propositions on your topic:

But it is not so easy to align the terminology with existing wind energy. After all AWES fly, unlike HAWT. AWES fall under aviation. All scientific papers are based on M.Loyd’s model. For this model, “drag” term (for turbine aloft) makes sense, because the thrust of the turbine aloft slows down the aircraft; “lift” term (for reeling) makes sense because it pulls up; “crosswind kite…” makes sense in contrast to “static kite…”.

The wind turbines you represent, as well as HAWT, are crosswind devices because the blades go crosswind. We do not ask the question for the whole of the turbine which never moves, unlike AWES.

But if the same wind turbine is lifted by at least one static kite, the whole becomes a “noncrosswind AWES” like on (with several turbines in fact):

And if the whole goes (more or less) crosswind like Makani wing (with several turbines in fact), it becomes a crosswind AWES, being slowed down by the thrust of the turbine, hence the term “drag device” mentioned above. A “crosswind AWES” as a drag device on:

Hi Pierre:
I’m certainly well acquainted with how and why the standard wind energy terminology is not followed in AWE: AWE doesn’t understand much about wind energy in the first place. It’s basically a bunch of incurable amateurs pretending they are developing meaningful wind energy systems, the whole time thinking “This time it’s different!” with disregard of all that has been learned in the last 2000 years of successful wind energy devices.
While the terms “lift device” and “drag device” are usually explained in the first section of any book on wind turbine design, the term “crosswind” is seldom if ever used in such a book, due to the fact that virtually all turbines have been 100% crosswind for 2000 years.
The whole “bounding” and “hovering” suggestion from Tallak is interesting, but to me, not really compelling, at least as a replacement for existing terminology.

However, I would say it is accurate to say any kite, tethered rotorcraft, or anything else that is seen to hover, is of course hovering. But that doesn’t mean it is not also a crosswind device.
Now if a gyrocopter is holding position, it is hovering, but it is usually also a crosswind device to the extent that its main rotor is tilted to be powered by the horizontal wind.

“Bounding”? Sound like a term designed to obfuscate the non-steady-state operation aspect, or make it sound cute, like it’s just a deer or maybe a bunnyrabbit, “bounding” across a field.

To me, kite-reeling spells it out fairly well, with “reeling” implying if it reels out, it also must reel in, ALTHOUGH a laddermill might still be called kite-reeling, and, if it existed, would ostensibly be a steady-state machine. But of course, even the most simple version is too difficult to build, even for 100 interns smiling for a group-selfie!

And really, I’m not so sure I really care WHAT we call kite-reeling, but I’m just saying “lift” and “drag” are already taken, not only in wind energy, but in aerodynamics in general, and crosswind is simply how wind energy has been done for 2000 years… An airfoil wing pushing down is still said to use “lift”. The reason Loyd chose “lift” is because he saw it reeling out - in a partially upward direction. But in wind energy, the term “lift” is already not just some obscure term, but the most basic term imaginable - a pre-school-level term which is, as I say, tantamount not to learning to read and write, nor even how to hold a pen or pencil, but how to hold a crayon.
The meaning is simple: The working surfaces are “dragged” downwind to make power, and must be returned to their original upwind position while using power, not producing power. The only exception I can think of is the American Farm Wiindmill, which runs 100% crosswind (unless furled in high winds) but is technically referred to by many as a “drag device”, due to its low rotation speed and high solidity, where the “official” cutoff from lift to drag is said to be the speed of the wind itself - if the operation is slower than the wind speed, it is a drag device, or if faster than the wind, a lift device, with the farm windmill running at about equal to the windspeed, allowing for endless debate.

Kite-reeling kites do travel crosswind, faster than the wind speed, but the functional operation of the reel-out is to travel downwind, slower than the wind, so, to me, it is in a special category: Using lift to nonetheless power a drag-based operation. It uses lift to achieve drag. It uses lift to enhance the force with which it is “dragged” downwind.

The advanve I believe was made with bounding vs hovering was to work towards a clear physical distinction of the two, rather than the earlier lift vs drag, which in addition to being confusing wording, also leaves a lot to the imagination. You may like or dislike the words, but it is the underlying definition that is important

Hello Tallak:
What I was trying to convey is that I don;t think “lift” and “drag” are related to terms like “hovering” and “bounding”. I do not think one is a substitute for the other. “Hovering” and “bounding” (reeling in-and-out) are ACTIONS, whereas “lift” and “drag” are the two broadest categories of wind energy devices. As I pointed out with the American Farm Windmill, it can be debated whether certain machines are “lift-based” or “drag-based”, that is a separate question from whether anything is “hovering” or “bounding”. The term “bounding” is so made-up and abstract that I did not even know it referred to kite-reeling for quite some time. To me it was just more gibberish from the peanut gallery. I just thought “Yeah sure, “bounding” - whatever the F%&k they mean by that - is it Roddy’s ring-based superturbine they are talking about? I don’t know, and I don’t really care.”
Now if it were a ball, bouncing, then sure, call it "bounding if that makes you feel better. I’ll stick with “reeling” if you don;t mind - using a reel - it is “reeling” - like reeling in a fish.
By the way, have you heard the old saying?
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him HOW to fish and he will teach someone else, until the oceans are empty of fish!
The moral of the story: Never teach anyone anything or you won’t be able to have fish for dinner! :slight_smile:

Can you please tell us @dougselsam where we could expect to find the world’s most expert wind energy experts?
Would it be somewhere like a wind energy science conference ?

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If I were @dougselsam I maybe might say that the world’s most expert wind energy experts have no time to waste on wind energy science conferences. They work as engineers and provide the world with wind turbines to supply electricity.

The likelyhood of coming up with a good windmill design in solitude is small, whichever talent. Even if you believe «people suck», you may still pick up a nugget at a conference here and there

They can work in teams, or consult each other on specific issues, without participating in conferences.