Yahoo group moving;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbHJ2MDc2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzI0ODU3MDE2BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA4MzI2OQRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE1NDIyNjY4MjM-

The yahoo group has been active for more than ten years. There is ongoing discussion, if it should be moved at all, here or elsewhere.

My latest message to the group:

I will try to catch and answer everything in order of posting:

@[Anonymous] “I’m not a fan of the name “awesystems”. If we can agree on a name I’d be happy to contribute to a subreddit.”
I chose the name for the AWES news twitter handle as AWE and AWES (awesome) are ambigous. Do you have a proposal?

@joefaust333 regarding the functionality in yahoo
Discourse has all that functionality and more. It is especially the convenient structure and user interface that makes it better than the yahoo group. I might be biased as I have never used a mailing list before but neither have any other potential new users, probably. That I reply in this fashion already says something. It is just so much easier to read a conversation. Here is more on the features of discourse: Thank you for making an account and giving it a shot.

@tallakt regarding the provider of the new Discourse forum
There is no organization behind it. It’s just me. I’m funding it out of pocket. You said on twitter that you want a forum when I asked everyone which features they wanted for . So I got you the best forum I could find. Another reason was because I’ve seen the forum at fail because of bad software so I wanted to fill that gap. I have the domain at, the server runs on a droplet, the mail server is provideed by mailgun. I must also say that I’m not a sysadmin and have little idea of what I’m doing. It’s all a dictatorship. I have all control.^^ But I’m all for distributing control. I did have a startup idea once but at the moment I have no monetary interest in the AWESystems.

@Oliver Nomad regarding a facebook group
I have a strong dislike towards anything by facebook and privacy concerns. I don’t have an account and I would not want to make everyone who wants to join the discussion signup. Moreover facebook groups have very limited features. It’s just one thread.

@joefaust333 regarding other platforms
Linkedin may be a source of news when workers post it there but it’s not suitable for discussion.
The wikipedia articles cannot be easily altered. Udo Zillmann has tried for some time to improve and structure the content but other editors were against it. That is also one of the main reasons why I wanted to make in the first place. -To give people a landing page where they come from search engines, get well structured basic information and are referred to other sites and literature.
Sorry, but would not be used by younger users. For hosting essays I think is best. This has also the possibility of “organig growth”.
The facebook page can be another entry point for people to get interested in and share AWESytems but I don’t think it’s well suited to anything else. And as mentioned above I strongly dislike facebook.

@[Anonymous] regarding the reply to joe’s feature list
[2] Both new accounts were me.^^
[3] Agreed on facebook and linkedin
Regarding the active users: As I pulled the message archive yesterday this became really evident. It’s mostly Dave and Joe with a bit of Pierre and the occasional message from someone far between.
Waiting for you to sign up. :wink:

I’ve started a thread on site feedback on the forum. If you have any suggestions for categories or other feedback please post it there.
We could have this conversation there in a more convenient manner. :stuck_out_tongue:

Also @JoeFaust have just learned who you are yesterday. Thank you for everything you do for AWES! I was focussed on current events and have never learned about the history of AWESystems.

My first vote would go to That is already an existing subreddit, but set to private. Maybe someone here is a moderator there, or knows one, so they can ask to set it to public? @JoeFaust maybe?

There is definitely good reason to back up the yahoo forum on another web platform. Over the years it has become a (very messy) treasure trove of AWES ideas. Waiver … there’s a lot of crap too.
There were schemes ( Like ) for exporting complete yahoo forum archives into a .csv and importing them into other forum formats. (Best imported into an “old Yahoo Forum messages” heading)

Exporting the membership list and inviting participation elsewhere probably breaks all the new data handling regs… so an invite posted and re-posted on the old forum might work to attract a quorum membership.

Not sure how you imported the twitter data today… was that just a straight post from Twitter to your discourse group from one app or the other… It may be beneficial to have an area or page with auto-imported / populated content from relevant twitter feeds or lists. Such as
again … once established … posting invites to membership on twitter may help.

IFTTT is handy for auto porting new material and cross-linking around the web.

Edit the wikipedia page to include your forum.

Very disappointed the reddit/r/airbornewindenergy was locked… What?? Have written to them again.

Would be very good to have a new discussion ground actually succeed.

I have downloaded and will export the whole yahoo group (about 25k messages) with personalgroupware to html. If everyone is ok with it I would like to load it up somewhere. That should be fairly searchable. It’s a bit of an effort since I’m only using the test version so I won’t do it for csv as well but if you do it I’ll load that up as well.
Here’s one file as an example: [edit: deadlink]

The twitter data was just manual link posting. There are such fancy things as plugins and apis, but I haven’t looked into that.

IFTTT seems like something very useful. Never heard about it before. Might come in handy.

Editing the wikipedia has been hard according to Udo Zillmann. So I’ll wait with that until the forum has gained traction to make sure the link stays up.

I’ve also messaged the subreddit.

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The yahoo group archive can be temporarily found here: Dropbox
Unfortunately, when not logged in, the html is shown as source code.
If you want to mention messages, please link to the original yahoo goup. I would also recommend quoting the relevant excerpt.

I’ve reserved
But I do recommend using the forum for now.

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In your preferences you can activate a mailing list mode.
When activated you’ll get a message every time someone posts something and can reply via mail.

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There has been so much activity in the yahoo group yesterday. I did find it incomprehensible. Is anyone following and can provide a summary?

Some discussions on Betz limit and power available in the wind are carried on Yahoo group in addition to the usual subjects. As the Betz limit concern and its implications are important and not easy to understand (for me too), mulling them can do move forward.

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Despite loads of activity on the messaging board, this forum has been just as productive today.^^
I’m glad we’ve got all those features like threads and quoting and editing.

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That’s a funny clip!

I always feel like I’m wading through a bog trying to navigate that forum.

Any small forum has the chance to develop into that though. If I present to the forum an idea I’ve worked on for a long time and it is quickly and efficiently put down by the people replying, it’s inevitable I’m either going to reconsider my life choices, or convince myself they don’t understand the idea. Since I have thought about the idea for so long, the latter is the more likely outcome. It’s scary putting yourself out there, and easy to withdraw from the discussion. You need a lot of maturity on all sides to make it work.

Here is a wish I have: more people joining the forum. More eyes and more perspectives usually leads to a better picture of the thing under discussion. And more activity by more people makes it more interesting to come back.

I’d like that very much. I’m promoting the forum when appropriate but don’t go out of my way to do so. It’s pretty much hidden from search engines. The terms “airborne wind energy forum” do not lead here. Maybe when I get the site online that will improve the situation.
I’m a layperson myself and would really prefer to have a pool of active experts and maybe even a recognized authority or two. Roland Schmehl was on the forum.

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The Yahoo Group moved back, given over-moderation concerns.

Roland pops up early on AWE Forums, typically preoccupied with trivial publishing and formatting details, not ideas. Sadly, he is not the sort of public AWE expert to address open questions like these-

  • How does a standard span-loaded LEI power-kite wing finally compare in power-to-weight with his PhD Thesis cantilever-wing LEI? (poorly)

  • Was TUDelft and Saracenos’s Bell Kite habitat concept flyable under scaling law limits or was it a fantasy? (fantasy).

  • Does he still believe his 2007 AWES reeling patent to be the one best architecture? (apparently so).

  • What happened to the US AWEC corporation as its protested conference hosting monopoly somehow passed into his hands? (???)

Since Wubbo passed, unanswered questions like these run in the hundreds, centered on TUDelft’s ventures’ circle, as raised on the Old Forum. Defenders like Pierre imply venture capitalism secrecy is justified over academic candor (agreed only if the insiders down-select the best tech).

The world’s top kite technologists*, in general, tackle AWE questions with confidence or frank uncertainty. Like the Old Forum, the New Forum can count on them as a great community braintrust, on a question by question basis.

  • AWE and kite super-experts and top sub-specialists like Culp, Lynn, Loyd, Hadzicki, Lang, Dunker, Faust, Lozano, Moore, North, Hably, Milanese, Ghivarello, Tracy, Kramer, German, Welty, Gomberg, Skinner, Jordan, Muller, Paelinck, etc.

With you being ~95% of the Yahoo Group, that will be true, if you decide so.^^

Meaning that Joe Faust, the admin of the Old Forum, decided not to shut it down, thankfully. By word count, Doug has been a major (>5%) poster. My posts tend shorter and many link to sources not covered here by anyone. Let no one think the Yahoo Group moved as imagined. Better two Forums on divergent priorities.

Roland makes a great job in a very difficult field.
The criticism is easy, the art is difficult.


Wubbo did a better job at leading. Criticism of Roland is easy, by comparison.

Indeed Wubbo reinvented @dougselsam’s later called as Laddermill.

Wubbo was not perfect, but both he and Doug rejected the LadderMill, no matter who was first.

Wubbo led me to his SpiderMill, and Doug’s ST seems to convince you. Go ahead and follow Doug and Roland then.