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The length of time between posts on this topic reminds me of a slogan the two guys from the previous AWE forum were quite enthusiastically promoting, not so long ago: “RAD

The acronym “RAD” was said to stand for “Rapid Airborne Wind Energy Development”. I observed the acronym should be “RAWED”, but “RAD” made them feel Iike hipsters… or something. You know, like “Dude! That is SO RAD!!! (?)
See, no action was expected, it’s all about emotion and posturing, with nothing to show, ever.

RAD seemed to be endlessly repeated for a fashion, but seems forgotten lately, in lieu of “Advanced kite networks”

The mystery then becomes, after several years have passed, what has “developed” in a “rapid” fashion, and where can we see an “advanced” “kite network” generating power today? I was at one point asked thru John O. if I would be willing to fund them, as though their lack of follow-thru was my fault…

As I recall, the stated method of power extraction from an “advanced” kite “network” was for the “network” to assume a dome shape over an open pit, abandoned mine, or crater, and pull electric trains up the sloped sides of the pit. The mythical electric trains would then generate electricity when allowed to coast back down to the bottom of the pit. No more details were ever provided, such as HOW the “advanced kite network” dome would physically pull a train below it sideways up the side of the crater, HOW the electricity would go from the train to the grid, or even WHY the trains were to be included, since a cable over a drum would eliminate the train as unnecessary at all, assuming the kite dome could pull sideways while still remainning in position over the dome.. But this is where the dream-state of “AWE” lives - say anything, whether it makes any sense whatsoever, or leads anywhere at all, but never go back and examine the progress resulting from whatever anyone said 5 years ago…. :slight_smile:

Yes and speaking of sanity checks, the human intelligence here on this forum was using Ampyx as an example, for skeptics, of the burgeoning success of AWE - Meanwhile, I guess they went bankrupt. (?) Maybe the weak link here is the humans! :slight_smile:

One of Dave Santos’ favorite memes… Thanks for that, Dave. :slight_smile:

HI PIERRE:

WOOPS - CAPSLOK… We made sails for our sleds as kids and rode the wind across our icy, flooded-then-frozen local playground, in the 1960’s. So easy a kid could do it. I’m thinking you got this from U-no-hu’s spam messages, as I’ve come to recognize the arctic sled theme as his fallback position for wind energy, after never having offered any actual workable ideas, let alone generating any power, let alone producing the TeraWatts he has often bragged about.

This is an example of the deceptive practice of redefining words, from the old forum: “moving the goalpost”. They start out denigrating wind turbines as “windtowers”, claiming that their “advanced” kites will soon make the wind turbines obsolete by producing TeraWatts of electricity. When that degenerates to shaking a self-winding watch, they retreat to pulling sleds, providing shade, etc., as their “new definition” of airborne wind energy, allowing them to claim victory despite their abject failure to ever generate a single Watt of electricity from the wind, by any means. And no, dumping sand from a tarp at the beach doesn’t count either… There is a spectrum here, and it’s easy to recognize where this one comes from. The next typical step would be to claim the sled could have a geared drive to power a generator to produce hydrogen onboard, to be collected and sold worldwide as “the answer” to the global warming derangement syndrome. All the typical nonsense we’ve become accustomed to…

:slight_smile:

Hi Doug,

No, this is on Windsled website. But this information, which focuses on kite traction, falsely supports his statements. Traction is not producing electricity, as you know. And furthermore (from the website):

Unsuccessful attempts have been made using bigger kites, testing kites as big as 250 sq/m but have proven too difficult to handle and not practical.

So, this kite would not scale well beyond 250 sq/m;

For the extreme traction needed to pull the sled, it is important that the kites are very slow.

As a result, a use as a crosswind kite would not lead to an efficient crosswind AWES.

Yeah, I’ve got a 24-foot wooden tower here - works great, a portable pyramid with a steel top to support a turbine, moveable, tiltable, and we use chunks of concrete to weigh it down against storms. Big deal. All windmill towers were made of wood for most of history.

This kind of crap gets so redundant after a while. One more “press-release breakthrough”, this time from “Rosie” - a great source for beginners to possibly learn some teeny bit of information about wind turbines, that all real wind people already know. How many articles have we seen over the last decade celebrating this “new” concept of wooden towers for wind turbines? And what does it have to do with AWE? Newsflash: structures of all kinds, including towers, buildings, vehicles. and turbines themselves, can be made of wood! OK, now you can go back to sleep.

I ‘ve pointed out hundreds, if not thousands, of the daily “press-release breakthroughs” for “advanced” wind turbine designs, “revolutionary” battery technologies, the underwater turbines, the “flying taxis”, the spinning cylinders on ships, on and on. They all lead nowhere. None of the “game-changer” wind turbines are ever even built. The spinning cylinders are a passing fad of greenwashing desperation, which will soon be removed as a nuisance. Almost none of them emerge as any working product, except maybe LFP batteries, which, while heavier, are at least cheaper.

We’ve discussed all the minute details of “windsleds” over and over, ever since THAT topic became Santos’ “fallback position” after he couldn’t come up with any workable AWE ideas. Like I’ve said, even as little kids, we had crafted sails for our sleds and rode them across icy fields - big deal!

Yeah, sure, “Rosie” again… I mean, I guess, for people who don’t know anything about wind energy, it’s better than nothing. Another “gamechanger” “press-release breakthrough”… Stay tuned now, as everyone forgets wooden towers for a couple more years, until next time it is once again re-announced as “a new idea” - the next great “game-changing” “press-release breakthrough! :slight_smile:

More grants, “preorders”, group selfies…
Notice a pattern?

…for the present; results for the future…We must be satisfied with it.

Hi Pierre:

OK thanks for distinguishing between the two concepts.

And yes, of course, “remote regions”

That means locate your early prototypes thousands of miles from curious eyes, where nobody ever goes, so you can pretend they are working when they are sitting idle and ignored.…

And let’s not forget “disaster-relief”!!!

The little remaining problem is the lack of any AWE system in regular operation, at any scale, at any time or place, despite billions spent by even the largest corporations, “teams” “renting office space” ( Wheeeee…!) , uninformed dreamers confusing fantasy ships supposedly pulled by kites with their propellers turning gearboxes spinning generators generating electricity to be wasted in highly inefficient electrolysis of seawater to end up with a 12% (or maybe even zero or negative) energy return - the endless untargeted dreaming by those who cannot master even elementary school arithmetic…

Which AWE effort or person, out of thousands of wannabes, has even a single windmill running right now? Who in AWE has even enough interest in actual wind energy to even have a single regular wind turbine running anywhere?

And by the way, to respond literally, the hypothetical AWE system would likely get tangled in the lower-level wind turbine blades.

The lower-level wind turbines would be hypothetical low-level AWE systems, alongside equally hypothetical but higher-level AWE systems.

This topic reminds me of the decade+ of such posts by Dave Santos. A pretense of high-level analysis, coming from the depths of ignorance and nothingness, without any promising examples, or even promising directions to pursue. Seems like a bunch of pseudo-intellectual gibberish to me. People with nothing left to say, trying to say something, but there is nothing.

I used to tell Santos his endless nonsense was comparable to showing up to a Formula-1 race with a wheelbarrow, while bragging about a future win.

Imagine if, rather than an improved wind energy system, the focus was on an improved diesel engine. A thousand people were involved, with $billions spent, but out of the thousand people, none had any experience designing diesel engines, in fact not one had ever even driven a diesel truck or operated a diesel generator. Further, the people would keep bragging about their future conquest of the space, while investors threw money at them, but as a decade and a half went by, still none of them had ever even just driven a diesel truck, let alone designed even a workable diesel engine, let alone an improved version…

At that point, could one possibly cite some sort of derangement syndrome?

As I visually scanned the “2 decades” article, I stopped at the second sentence of the abstract:

“Replacing the tower and foundation of conventional wind turbines can substantially reduce the material use and, consequently, the cost of energy, while providing access to wind at higher altitudes.”

OK, now this is on “Science Direct”, but is it actually science, or just one more deceptive fluff article, biased toward a mythical AWES situation that does not actually even exist?

Is it true, after 2 decades, thousands of people involved, and perhaps $ billions spent, that any AWE system has demonstrated less material used for the energy generated, let alone a lower cost of energy? Not that I know of. If you add up the weight of the typical AWE half-shipping container and its contents, and maybe a tower for launching and landing, compared to the energy output over the system lifetime, the results show perhaps a thousand times the material used, and hence cost, for the energy generated.

I’ll bet the standard 10 kW turbine here has generated far more energy than all the AWE systems in the world combined, in those same two decades. After those two decades, there is still no AWE system in regular operation, anywhere in the world. Larger systems would require stronger mounting, which would probably involve a heavy concrete base, and launching and landing seem to often require adding an actual tower! And let’s remember, compared to fabric and carbon fiber, concrete and steel are very cheap. The need to maintain or routinely replace the kites and tethers adds to the ongoing cost. What we see here is a mere “wish”, presented as scientific fact, from the very first words. Typical wind-wannabe behavior.

The next deceptive passage I observe was the following about existing supposed wind energy capacity: “an established technology delivering more than 590 GW worldwide, which equates to 5% of the global energy portfolio (Wind technologies market report, 2018)” - The deceptive aspect here is mentioning “gigaWatts” (referring to peak, nameplate, full output of all the turbines on the world, combined, but as we know, the average output of all wind energy systems is only about 30-35% of max (nameplate) output, due to the intermittent nature of the wind. This “mistake” of comparing the peak potential output of intermittent sources that operate at less than half of their full capacity, against reliable sources that operate at near full capacity as needed, is just one more deception in the world of energy, a deception that takes place because the statements, while technically true, are incomplete, and therefore deceptive by omission of the most important fact of the story: That supposed energy output is overstated by 300%!

There would be no time at which all wind energy systems in the world are producing full power simultaneously. But even the most astute people might not happen to think of this simple fact when reading such deceptive passages. Realistically, “5% of the global energy portfolio” equates to less than 2% of global energy production. the keyword in that deception is “portfolio”, rather than what matters: production.

The next passage that jumped out at me was “Although soft kites were arguably the leading design considered in the earlier years of AWE system development, there has been some gravitation away from soft kite designs in recent years”.

This illustrates the cranial density of some of the early and most insistent voices of AWE wannabes, who remain to this day, incapable of comprehending the simple elements that make wind energy actually work. Soft kites are far less aerodynamic than hard blades, and incapable of surviving the strong winds involved without repeated replacement. It’s one of many examples of how new, wannabe entrants to wind energy always say the same dumb things and make the same newbie mistakes, no matter how “smart” they think they are. Their extreme self-described “smartness” actually equates to negative intelligence, since most everything they say, no matter how eloquently stated, turns out to be wrong. What they don’t realize is wind energy amounts to one giant real-world IQ test, and so far, they have flunked!

The next wrong statement that jumps out at me is “the Altaeros system is presently being repurposed for telecommunications”. It’s interesting that I was alone in flagging every statement from Altaeros as simply not true, despite being endlessly repeated in so many articles etc.

First, anyone with any experience in high wind environments could easily see that the Altaeros inflated donut craft was way too frail to withstand anything but a light-to-moderate wind at best. Typical wishful wind-newbie behavior.

Second, Altaeros claimed they “would be” (all AWE “accomplishments” are set in the future) powering the grid in a remote location (its almost always a remote location) in this case, a remote village in Alaska. How silly to test prototypes in remote locations? But it makes sure nobody can easily get there to report the poor performance, and the fact that the system lasted perhaps a few hours before catastrophic failure, and maybe that it simply is not in fact running at all. Seeing how frail the Altaeros craft was, just from seeing the photos, I ruled this out in the previous AWE forum, then finally called the newspaper in that same remote village to confirm that, no, there had been no such grid-feed taking place in that village. I wasn’t there, so I can’t say for sure if it was even attempted, all I can tell you is what they told me. What we never did see, as far as I recall, was any footage of it actually powering a remote village with residents remarking how well it worked and how much power it was contributing. And then where was it? If it worked, wouldn’t it still be running for some time? If it had ever generated any significant amount of energy, wouldn’t we have heard about that? One thing about supposed AWE energy production, is that what is NOT said is often more telling that what IS said.

Third, apparently Altaeros immediately gave up on wind energy and, realizing the only skill they had learned is where to buy a blimp and how to fill it with helium, they took the typical “AWE” step of “pivoting” to some related project, in Alraeos’ case, providing wifi from an off-the-shelf blimp. This is contrary to the statement in the article that should have simply said they had failed and given up. Instead it said “the Altaeros system is presently being repurposed for telecommunications”. No, the Altaeros system was abandoned, not “repurposed”. And there is no indication that they ever provided wifi to anyone, anywhere. It seems like it was just one more failed project that never went anywhere. Did they imagine that nobody had ever thought of using a blimp instead of a radio tower? That people had just been to dumb to realize how much better it would be to maintain a blimp for decades on end, rather than erecting a tower that could simply stay in place for decades without undue attention?

And again, who announced that this pivot to airborne wifi was just one more deceptive statement from more AWE wannabes? Me, that’s who. Nobody else had the slightest question that Altaeros had “in fact” powered a remote village in Alaska, yet were now, strangely, abandoning that supposedly-successful project to “pivot” to helium-lofted wifi antennae. And here’s the funniest part: I never need any evidence to debunk these repeated wrong statements from Altaeros, or most other supposed “AWE” “companies”. All I needed was my long experience debunking wind-wannabes: Virtually everything wind wannabes ever say is wrong, whether an outright lie, or naive wishful thinking stated as factual “in the future” accomplishments, it’s all the same, and never seems to change.

The next announcement from Altaeros was a supposed collaboration with the country of Oman. In that case I could say I had also received such a kind offer from Oman years ago. The Sultanate of Oman was nice enough to send a couple of emissaries to California to offer me to relocate to Oman. All I had to decide was how many wives I wanted! But I thought, how many people in Oman would love to live on a ranch in Southern California, an hour from Hollywood? Anyway, I expressed my skepticism over that announcement from Altaeros, just on the basis that before that, all of their previous statements of “in the future” “progress” had been false. This is just very typical wind-wannabe behavior. They are all the same. They start out with overly optimistic projections of future success, and that quickly transitions to just endless lies.

I have to stop here before I wear out another keyboard trying to warn people about lying wind-wannabes. I have stuff to do, and can’t write another encyclopedia about the wishful thinking of the endless parade of “really smart” wind wannabes who can never get a single system on regular operation no matter HOW many decades pass. :slight_smile:

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I love the title of this “topic”. “Toward a Viable AWES” - as though that isn’t already THE topic. Oh, a VIABLE AWES? You’re looking for something that is actually VIABLE? As in it actually WORKS??? That seems silly to me. The AWE “industry” has been here for 20 years without anything even close to “viable”, so why change gears now? Thousands of people, billions of dollars - hey, this is already a huge “industry”! Don’t change anything, or you might ruin it! What we need is more people who have no idea what they are doing! :slight_smile:

Hi Doug,

Do you prefer Toward the worst AWES?

This was to respond to the initial plan, by adding a central aerostat.

But I just realized that I had already mentioned this with a central lenticular aerostat.

Hi Pierre:

Yeah, and there’s the blimps with propellers too, etc. On and on - a million ideas, nothing working to this day…

I just think that title with the word “viable” is funny. What you said reflects exactly my thought: What, suddenly we actually want to talk about something “viable”? So what have we been talking about for 17 years now? Oh wait - so far everything has been nonviable… I guess its also funny how some people already knew if so many of these projects were viable, but all those “really smart people” couldn’t be bothered with any good info. Oh well, that story never changes. Ya know, the La Brea Tar Pits and all those skeletons… One thing though: We don’t know about all the animals that may have got one foot stuck in the tar, but were able to escape before beings sucked in! So maybe AWE, or wannabe-wind-energy in general, is even worse than the La Brea Tar Pits! :slight_smile: