Familiar looking - Chinese buoyant airborne turbine (BAT)

And from the second link:

A two-
bladed wind turbine with 2.4 m (7.9 ft) blades is installed in a 5 m
(16.4 ft) diameter duct along the longitudinal axis of the S500. At wind
speeds greater than 7 m/s (15.6 mph), the wind turbine drives a
lightweight generator with a rated capacity of more than 50 kW .

“The S1000 floating wind power generation system with a
diameter of 15 meters (49.2 ft) and a total length of about 30
meters (98.4 ft) slowly took off. After climbing for about 15
minutes, it successfully reached the test height and hovered
stably.”……”During the test flight, the generated power
exceeded 100 kilowatts.”
In comparison to the S500, the S1000 has the same 15 meter (49.2
ft) maximum diameter, is 7 meters (23 ft) longer, operates at a higher
altitude, and has a larger, reconfigured ring tail.

At wind speeds greater than 7 m/s”: this could be a wind of more than 25 m/s as well; in that case, if the duct is removed, we get 50 kW if the turbine is robust enough and performs well with very strong winds.

For S1000, 30 m long (instead of 23 m for the S500) would allow to increase the efficiency,

My take: the fact that the balloon is tilted to take advantage of aerodynamic lift closes the opening and prevents the turbine from receiving the full wind.

Divide these 50 or 100 kW by at least 10, and you will be closer to reality.

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Exactly. Anyone with experience running turbines in this size range knows the power claims cannot be true. It is easy to just say you made a certain amount of power, The conveniently round numbers, such as “50 kW” as opposed to, say, 47.4 kW, are another clue.
It would be nice to see output on a meter, but even this can be faked. :slight_smile:

The S500 and S1000 are 15 meters in diameter, leading to 225 m² of coverage. The 4.8 m diameter wind turbine sweeps 18 m². With a wind speed of 10 m/s and a power coefficient of (Cp) of 0.37, the power would be 4 kW. You divide 225 by 18, which gives you 12.5 that you multiply by 4 kW: there you have your 50 kW!

But things do not happen like that. If it is true that the flow is constant in a Venturi, which leads to an acceleration in the narrowest part, it is also true that the Venturi blocks a large part of the flow.

Yesterday I conducted an experiment with a funnel (incomplete Venturi) of 25 cm in diameter, 14 cm high, and 3 cm in diameter at the outlet, which I placed against a fan: the airflow speed was 4.2 m/s while it was 0 around. Without funnel the airflow speed was 2.8 m/s but on the whole area covered by the 25 cm diameter funnel. In terms of power, we would have 2.8 m/s x 490 cm² (without the funnel but counting its base of 25 cm in diameter) versus 4.2 m/s x 7 cm² (the funnel and its opening of 3 cm in diameter). You are at a disadvantage.

The designers of wind turbine shrouds try to limit the ratio between the widest and the narrowest parts to get an advantage.

Maybe it’s not so familiar looking any more

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amazing/comments/1nq3n58/1mw_the_worlds_largest_floating_wind_power_plant

Is Altaeros AWES becoming a real starting point with Chinese technology?

Oh no

Faceless AI slop videos with minimal thought have arrived in AWES

Who knows…
On the two documents below, we can better see the details. 12 turbines, 100 kW each. The diameter of the balloon is 40 m, so the diameter of each turbine could be about 6 m (by being optimistic, and rather about 4.5 m), leading to a swept area of about 28 m², leading to a power of 6.72 kW, assuming a power coefficient (Cp) of 0.4, and a nominal wind speed of 10 m/s. Even if the duct is very efficient, a power of 100 kW looks impossible. If the nominal wind speed is 20 m/s, 100 kW could be achieved if the duct doubles the turbine power. If the nominal wind speed is 17 m/s, 100 kW could be achieved if the duct triples the turbine power. In fact if the diameter of each wind turbine is only 4.5 m as supposed, the power could be far lesser.

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Two days ago, in an important French daily newspaper:

S1500 looks like the largest AWE event on the international media scene in recent years, but this time concerning an achievement.

I would like to see photos or videos of the device in full flight. Photos of Altaeros BAT appear here and there without the name being mentioned. That said the S1500 has been redesigned in terms of its design.

Ses douze microgénérateurs positionnés au centre du conduit, en fibre de carbone, «pèsent moins d’une tonne au total, soit seulement un dixième du poids des éoliennes classique», précise le South China Morning Post.

Translation:

Its twelve micro-generators positioned in the center of the carbon fiber duct “weigh less than a ton in total, which is only a tenth of the weight of conventional wind turbines,” specifies the South China Morning Post.

A “ton in total” is likely a ton per turbine so a ton for the nacelle (generator and rotor) of a rated 100 kW wind turbine, so 12 tons for the complete 1.2 MW turbine (but with very strong winds), a regular 1 MW wind turbine weighing about 10 times more (for example 91.2 T for the nacelle).

That said the total weight could be a ton as indicated, because the wind turbines are small, the diameter being rather about 4.5 m.

Another article:

At 60 meters long, 40 meters wide and 40 meters high, the helium airship is no lightweight, but at less than a ton, it is 90% lighter than conventional wind turbines with the same output.

A 1 MW wind turbine weighs about 91.2 T for the nacelle (see above). So the S1500 would be rather about 900‰ lighter if its weight is really a ton. So a ton could be the weight of only one 100 kW wind turbine as assumed above. But a total weight of only a ton is not impossible.

Yet another article:

Again this weight of only 1 ton for the total S1500, whereas a 1 MW wind turbine weighs about 100 tons (91.2 T for the nacelle as assumed above) without the tower, which is not 10 times more but about 100 times more. There may have been a translation problem, and the weight of one ton may only concern a single 100 kW wind turbine (among the twelve), which would be about 10% of the weight of a regular wind turbine of same power.

A quote:

The S1500’s design features 12 carbon-fiber micro-generators within a duct system that accelerates airflow, boosting efficiency by over 20%.

20% does not represent a huge effect in term of power, unless this is 20 % additional wind speed.

Now we can admit that the huge power of S1500 is mainly due to the very strong winds at high altitude, as indicated in the title (" Winds ‘3× Faster’ at 1,500m for 27× Power Output "). But that implies the turbine resist to very strong winds.The rotor of each turbine is far smaller than a rotor of a quoted 100 kW traditional wind turbine. The rpm of each generator being higher, the generator could also be lighter than a regular generator. Interesting but still not complete information.

Cependant, l’équipe n’a pas encore publié de données sur la puissance que le système a été capable de produire pendant le test.

Translation:

However, the team has not yet released data on the power that the system was able to produce during the test.

This is perhaps the most reliable information about this project, yet it should still be monitored.

A question about a detail: I wonder if the secondary ducts of each of the 12 turbines actually add efficiency to the overall annular duct.

Hi Pierre: Well, here I am, back in “The Land of The Lost”, seeking any rare instance of factual information. I agree with your overall analysis. I note that the diminishing diameter of the tail of the blimp makes the back end of the assembly into a diffuser, which should add a bit of power, although the sides of the blimp will slow the wind by friction too, so maybe no net gain. This idea of getting more power from a smaller generator is a repeated amateur mistaken notion from people who haven’t burned out many generators due to overheating in strong, steady winds lasting many hours or days. As I’ve illustrated by my video of producing 5000 Watts from a little 7-inch diameter generator weigh 32 lbs., it’s easily possible to get huge amounts of power from a small generator for a brief period, before heat has time to accumulate. For steady-state output, you need a huge amount of copper and steel to keep it all cool, which is why my 10 kW turbine weighs over 1000 lbs. The idea that this blimp with 12 small turbines could produce a MegaWatt is a complete joke, as anyone who knows about wind turbines can see.
Here are the new and old Goodyear blimps:
The Goodyear Blimp, Today and Yesterday | Airships.net

The new one is an airship. It’s about the same size as the STATED size of the one under discussion, but can we believe the stated size? Note: There is no picture showing a visual comparison to any person or object of known size. Back to the new Goodyear blimp:

  • Static Lift: 2,940 pounds

  • Maximum Dynamic Lift: 1,102 pounds (500 kg)

  • Maximum static heaviness, take-off/landing: 400 kg

  • Maximum static heaviness, inflight: 500 kg

  • Maximum static lightness : -200 kg

  • Payload: 5,181 lbs (2,350 kg)

  • Max. flight altitude: 10,000′ (3,048 m)

Not sure from the above stats how much weight the Goodyear blimp can actually lift, but it is far less than 10,000 lbs.

I’d say the producers of this new wind energy stunt are newbies to wind energy, fitting too-small generators to bigger blades. and the whole thing is just way overstated by an order of magnitude. As usual, the main question is, if it is so great, why is it not running right now?

And it could not reach the Jet Stream.
You can look on Ebay and see many, many wannabe wind energy devices from the same part of the world, that similarly exaggerate their output by ten times or more. This is normal practice for wind newbies who don’t know any better, trying to rationalize substandard projects.

I would say this setup would be very lucky to produce 1/10th of the stated output, and could never rationalize the cost of building and maintaining such a large airship, or blimp - whichever it is. Far better to just buy a 100 kW turbine on a tower. I saw something in their promotional material about disaster relief. Standard nonsense. As usual, nice try… :slight_smile:

Hi Doug, I quite agree. 100 kW with 12 m/s wind speed would be the best, 1 MW being achieved with winds close to 30 m/s. The total swept area (which is not indicated) could be close to 200 m² if the diameter of each wind turbine is 4.5m as I suppose from the illustrations. The duct effect is not huge, being only 20% as stated, or perhaps more with a tire tube as a duct or even Altaeros or SAWES (S500, S1000, S1500), but without aerodynamic lift.

That said I think Altaeros and SAWES are (or were) perhaps good AWE projects for two reasons: using technology of traditional wind turbines which works better than other wind systems, and the protection of the wind turbine(s) inside the duct.

Hi Pierre:

We had a car dealer along the 405 Freeway down near Orange County and LA County, a few miles from the beach. It had an advertising blimp overhead, painted with a smiley-face to resemble a whale. Their TV ads would show the blimp, so you knew where the dealership was. This is an area with nearly perfect weather most of the time, not a lot of high winds. Of course, it was always difficult for me to drive by without wondering about the idea of hanging a wind turbine from such a blimp.
Having looked into buying advertising blimps, comparing:

  1. Cost of buying a blimp

  2. Cost of supplying helium

  3. Turbine weight that could be supported

  4. Ability of an advertising blimp to survive high winds

  5. Cost of supplying ground anchors and tethers to stabilize the blimp

  6. Cost and weight of a support structure for a turbine

  7. Amount of electricity that could be generated from a turbine of a weight that could be lifted by a blimp of a given size

  8. Cost and time spent maintaining the whole operation, adding helium, etc.

I determined that it would be better to support the turbine from a tower. More economical production of more power, with fewer problems.

At that time I could have bought an entry-level advertising blimp capable of lifting about 30 lbs for around $3000. A 30 lb. turbine was around $400, and produced about 300 Watts in a strong wind. If one took steps to make a lighter weight turbine, one might squeeze more power from a slightly larger turbine, but we also needed some sort of support structure to hang the turbine

To me, if one had a fully-functioning brain, one might consider why all the various radio and TV towers, antennae towers, etc. were not blimps instead? It would be hard for such a fully-functioning brain to not realize that the idea must have been considered and found to be unworkable, or else we’d already see some antennas supported by blimps, right? So the nonexistence of blimps used to support antennas anywhere I could think of suggested that such an idea might not be economical or practical, right?

So we’re already at the edge of realizing that lifting a turbine with a blimp instead of using a tower is very unlikely to be a good idea, right? Then we realize a fair-weather advertising blimp carrying its full weight capacity is going to be challenged by a windfarm-class wind resource, possibly needing beefier construction, which would cost more and support less weight.

So already the idea of economical energy production from a a helium blimp is looking very unlikely…

THEN we look into a blimp with a central tunnel that:

a) reduces volume (hence reducing lift) by 1/2

b) uses more material, weighing more, further reducing lift,

c) is less rigid than a regular blimp, so less able to survive strong winds

So a hollow tunnel blimp, assumed to accelerate the wind, will weigh more, while providing less lift, and have less strength. Hmmm… This idea is looking worse and worse, without building anything at all.

SEEING photos of the frail, floppy-looking Altaeros tunnel-blimp suggested to anyone with experience in high winds, that it could not survive a windfarm-class wind resource. To me, it appeared that any wind strong enough to produce a good amount of electricity would cause structural problems with the blimp. That was why I declared that their statements of powering a remote village in Alaska were most likely false.

These are the reasons I so quickly dismissed Altaeros as a viable AWE candidate.

Now on the other hand, it would seem natural fpr some team to at least TRY hanging a turbine from a blimp or kite, but the few feeble attempts to even just hang a turbine from a kite have been insufficient to take very seriously - model airplane propellers spinning toy electric motors… nobody is using them…

Apparently, without a central tunnel to distract from simple reality, none of the thousands of AWE people has seen a turbine hung from a blimp as worth the bother. That is where maybe people had fully-functional brains.

So I think it’s the introduction of the tunnel that is a sufficient distraction from reality that people keep taking this idea seriously. All it seems to require to fool people is ONE new feature, and logic and common sense go out the window.

It’s quickly apparent that the illusion can only continue by exaggerating the output by an order of magnitude. Even then, if we assume the claimed numbers were correct, the economics STILL might not pencil out when one considers the cost of keeping a blimp in the air. Would a 1 MegaWatt turbine on a tower cost more than purchasing and operating the new Goodyear blimp? I’d say it is unlikely.

Then when we hear about the Altaeroses of the world “pivoting” to “providiing wifi” using a regular blimp with no tunnel, we again must pause and consider “Do you think nobody ever thought of that before? Really???”. As though, because this team from MIT was unable to comprehend the realities of their first failed endeavor, their NEXT “fallback, plan-B” idea would work great? That nobody had ever worked through the idea of supporting antennae using blimps? That sounds like a decent idea, but it is so simple, one must assume it would be donne everywhere by now if it were economical.

So on the one hand, thinking through the idea of a blimp supporting a wind turbine yields a negative probability of success, but on the other hand, how could the field of AWE “feel” like they had covered all the bases without at least giving it a try? So people are trying it and thereby actually disproving the cncept, while providing false information as to output to make it seem more like a success than a failure. :slight_smile:

Let’s say more than 20 m/s. Today I experimented an arodynamic toy inside the 42 cm tire inner tube, with strong winds from 8 m/s to 12 m/s and more, at 1 m height, that to try to approach the shape of S1500. As expected the tire accelerated the flow. The toy inside the tire did not appear to change appreciably from the tire alone, either way.

But the shape of S1500 can perhaps be more efficient (than the experimented toy inside the tire), because the air seems to be progressively ducted by the shape of the central airship, and towards the inner part of the ring of the turbines, while the outer part is also ducted.

So, S1500 deserves in-depth analysis, because it could be a real step forward, even if we must remain critical: how long can very light wind turbines last when subjected to regular strong winds?

Hi Pierre: Nice to see your experimentation continuing.

One aspect I often see in the world of wanabe inventors is the “all-ya-gotta-do-is” excuse to try and force-fit unworkable notions or design goals to rationalize some new idea. One example would be “all ya gotta do is” make winds turbines a fraction of the weight, for some version of airborne wind energy to work! That fact has been in place for 20 years!

The problem there would be just substituting some new challenge for the original challenge. Yes, of course it would be great to need only a fraction of the materials to make a generator - across all industries, including tower-mounted turbines.

Obviously there has always been an effort to minimize material use and therefore cost for motors and generators, not to mention wind turbine based. So while specific steps to reduce generator weight are possible, it’s unlikely to get to a much lower weight without some breakthrough that would improve all motors and generators for all industries. So what is stated as a minor adjustment would actually entail a revolution in motor design across all industries’!

This reminds me of “energy storage” to “rescue” wind and solar. Remember the cranes lifting concrete blocks? Why do we think THAT isn’t going anywhere? Because in the end, it doesn’t pencil out. Anyone who can do simple arithmetic should be able to figure that out, but there’s a lot of dumb-money floating around out there for seemingly compelling stories - any battery system requires a certain amount of money to be spent to gain a certain number of storage cycles, with what amounts to a separate power plant with its own expensive interconnection to a grid!

The cost usually turns out to be too high without some artificial (taxpayer-funded) infusion of cash, since if storage were affordable, it would already be in place to store power during times of low demand to sell back at higher prices during times of high demand! The need for storage is not new - it’s always been there!

To my shoot-from-the-hip impression, ownership, operation, and maintenance of a blimp or airship is too expensive to use one to support wind turbines in the sky, period. And let’s remember, the worst operating conditions for blimps is high winds - and instead the talk is of placing such blimps intentionally into very high winds.

I think it’s idle dreaming. People with someone else’s money to spend for a stunt that can never pencil out as a real business, because it is a money-losing concept. Let’s remember, “There are unlimited ways to generate SOME amount of power from the wind, at SOME cost, but is it an economically realistic choice?” :slight_smile:

It is stated (without proof) in some videos that the S1500 was tested by very strong winds in the Gobi Desert, not far from its home port.

Its aerodynamics seem designed so that the ring-shaped surface carrying the wind turbines receives the full force of the wind. Under these conditions, the aerostat, far from being an obstacle, becomes an asset.

Brushless motors used for model airplanes could produce 10 kW/kg. And perhaps brushless generators were used for Makani to reach both high rpm and lightness. Perhaps the S1500 uses this type of generators in very strong winds, allowing also both more rpm and lightness. Their lifetime can be a small fraction from “20 years”, but the same can go for the other parts of the AWES.

Hi Doug, do you think Emrax generators would be good enough for wind turbines, knowing the considerable benefit for AWES due to the enormous weight saving?
Perhaps similar generators equip the S1500.

– Best in class power density (up to 10 kw/kg)

Hello Pierre:

I’m going to summarize your last couple of posts here:

  1. ’Bbbbut I read on their website, they said they tested it in high winds in the Gobi Desert!!!”

Answer: Yeah, sure, and Altaeros “Is powering” a remote village in Alaska. Oh wait – that was never true! And idle claims on a promotional website do not necessarily overcome the simple facts of LTA aircraft: They are expensive and the materials wear out from being beaten and distorted by the wind and sun. Blimps made heavy and strong enough to truly withstand high winds for long periods are way more expensive and built with heavier construction, and so have less carrying capacity. And let’s not forget the inherent cost and labor and intensive, detailed, ongoing attention required to maintain a blimp and keep it full of buoyant gas!

The economics and engineering requirements of blimps do not change just because some hopeful developer makes claims to that effect on a website! Let’s see some output graphs from actual operation, showing how much power it produced, for how long, and at what wind speed! Idle, general claims mean nothing, and are probably outright lies! Especially when they come from wind energy wannabes, and especially from certain parts of the world where truth is a very loose and elusive concept.

  1. “And what about brushless Motors? I found some other stuff on the internet about a company that makes small axial-flux motors that weigh less!!! Can’t they just use these lightweight axial flux motors???”

Answer: Yeah, yeah, yeah - every generator I’ve ever made or used has always been brushless - that is what everyone has always used for small turbines, and increasingly for larger turbines. It’s already standard. Has been forever. Professor Crackpot almost always uses axial-flux generators. Why? because they are “different” and there is always that urge to ruin any good invention by incorporating unnecessary features that sound or look cool or different - like using axial-flux generators, or more blades than 3!

The website you linked to mentions cooling systems for their “low RPM” motors that operate at 4500 RPM. That’s about 20 times as fast as the wind turbines rotors will spin. The only way you could ever possibly squeeze that much power out of a small motor is to run it at a far higher speed than a wind turbine rotor will spin, and manufacture a heavy, complicated, gearbox and a heavy, complicated liquid cooling system. So for each motor you’d need a gearbox. And a liquid cooling system, just as Tesla auto motors have. This all gets heavy and complicated, with more failure points.

The fact that you can find a “press-release breakthrough” website making idle, generalized claims of success, with no specific numbers or data to back it up, no scatter plot, no verified power curve, does not change the basic laws of physics that guide turbine design! The VERY FIRST and pretty much ONLY thing a wind veteran will say to any wannabe developer making unbelievable claims is “SHOW US YOUR POWER CURVE”. And you may notice that the website for those motors mentions over and over the ability to “customize” their products. This suggests they have few, if any, actual customers, and are desperate for business of any kind.

Every small turbine uses the equivalent of brushless motors these days. There is little difference between a PMG and a brushless motor, and the most common configuration for home-built turbines, not to mention vertical-axis turbines, has always been axial flux motors, mostly because they seem “different” and are easy to understand. If anything, they are heavier and use more material, including 2 separate steel rotors supporting twice as many magnets total, for the same output as a regular radial flux motor. What axial flux motors do NOT do is drastically change the basic amount of iron and copper required for a given sustained power level.

All this amateurish musing and hypothecating is de rigeur in small wind wannabe circles, and has been beaten to death. All the turbine manufacturers are aware of such options. Still, they build standard PM generators, heavy enough to actually withstand high winds for many hours or days on end, and even then the turbines routinely self-destruct and could not possibly pay for themselves without artificial subsidies or incentives. Not to say there is no way to lower motor weight somewhat with a few clever tricks, but the basic laws of physics, economics, and material longevity do not magically change because someone puts misleading partial information on a website! :slight_smile:

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Armchair expert here … Guessing the blimp part in the forward centre of the newest Chinese BAT gives some passive stability
much like in this drone design explanation (Stability section at ~7 mins in)

Probably tilted slightly to give some aerodynamic lift as well.

So it’s not all bad
kinda

And of course multi rotors are lighter weight per power
(OK a lot of parts… my pals at Myriad are working on that)
Sad news last week one of the founders of wind energy scaling engineering and a leading proponent of the Multi rotor Peter Jamieson died.
A really super guy
:face_holding_back_tears:

Ahh good luck to them finding out more with a craft none of us bothered to build

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Sad news indeed. Peter Jamieson, a great inspiration for AWE as well as a leader in wind energy.

Puzzled why this multi-turbine mounting frame obituary is in the Chinese Altaeros copy topic, but here’s a press-release about a 50 MW Chinese twin-turbine promise:

Riviera - News Content Hub - China’s Ming Yang planning massive 50-MW floating offshore wind turbine