Thanks Doug, The stories all tie together
A Chinese multi rotor company wanting to invest in Scotland
The home of Multi Rotor wind energy scaling and Peter Jamieson
Yeah, lots of âstoriesâ.
Occasionally, one turns out to be true!
But usually not⊠
A news clip: 䞎äžäșć·_SAWES_ćčłæ”ć±æ”źç©șéŁććç”_珏ćæŹĄć·„äžé©ćœèœæșæ žćżïŒ
The company website has claims and renderings. I didnât see the new S1500 yet. A rendering of the most futuristic shipping container Iâve seen yet: 䞎äžäșć·_SAWES_ćčłæ”ć±æ”źç©șéŁććç”_珏ćæŹĄć·„äžé©ćœèœæșæ žćżïŒ
An 11 second video: https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/1nqztt5/this_is_the_test_flight_of_s1500_an_airborne_wind/
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From the website quoted above (Technology research and development_Beijing Linyi Yunchuan Energy Technology Co., Ltd), an excerpt translated by Google:
Aerodynamic layout of the lift body duct
The wind energy capture efficiency that exceeds the Betz limit increases from about 50% to more than 60% under strong size constraints
This represents 20% more than the wind turbine without a duct. I measured an even greater difference with a torus of 42 cm outer diameter and 24 cm inner diameter, the inner part of which is funnel-shaped.
Wow thatâs a mighty impressive website
A lot going on there
Not just a home loft effort thatâs for sure.
Interesting that China has announced stopping incentives support for their EVs (now that they are so dominant)
Is China now more actively incentivising development of next gen tech ?
Going to need a lotta steel for standard designs with new wind power targetsâat least 120 GW added annually between 2026 and 2030
If thereâs anything the perpetual noobs of wannabe AWE should know by now, itâs that fancy websites and renderings, not to mention press coverage by âjournalistsâ, who similarly have no background to determine a good idea from bad, are meaningless.
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Hi Doug, your comment mostly concerns SAWES. So I reply on the relevant topic.
One of the most important functions of the blimp is to protect the contained wind turbine. This helps prevent damage during takeoff and landing, and during collisions between units within a farm. This is a positive point for both Altaeros and SAWES. Thus, the blimp has two essential functions: permanent aerostatic lift and protection. A third function is increasing the efficiency of the turbine by duct or shroud effect. These functions could be achieved using a simplified torus-shaped blimp.
Now the disadvantages of the blimp could outweigh the advantages. However, with or without a blimp, it should be noted that the onboard wind turbine (including in the form of rope-drive Kiwee) is the closest thing to traditional wind power for AWE.
Excepted if strong winds above 20-25 m/s were used, even for a short time.
I think you are referring to a quote from their website:
Betz coefficient is not directly affected. The wind turbine receives more wind by the funnel effect. I noted that the resulting increase is not very significant, being about 20 %. To compare with the 50% for this ducted wind turbine or perhaps the 42 cm / 24 cm torus.
This risk is considerable when one invests their time in AWE.
Concerning S1500, I am trying to gather as much information as possible. The wind speed and measured power are still missing.
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Donât make it more complicated than it is. Wind turbine technology is a known, not a mystery. The diameter and weight to generate a given amount of power are well understood, by those who practice the art, just not by the âidiotâ bystanders with zero experience or interest in even knowing any facts. On the other hand, you are very good at looking up facts.
There are always lies out there. Wannabe wind energy invites lies, because otherwise the wannabes have nothing to say, since they have not improved the art of wind energy, but instead have losing ideas, usually already disproven before they ever get started. So, lying is all they have left! Kind of sad, right? The saying âidiots, idiots, idiotsâ is not a joke, although it IS funny - because it is true, always has been, and apparently always will be!
Hi Doug,
What is new is the need for lightweight wind turbines. Since the winds for AWE are faster and more consistent, the turbines would have to rotate faster, which could lighten the generator and perhaps weaken it and shorten its lifespan, given that the assumptions or power tests are based on wind speeds of 20 m/s and above by simplified calculation deduced from the possible swept area of the wind turbine(s).
If you recall, this issue of fragility and potential shortening of the lifespan of Makaniâs small secondary turbines wasnât mentioned as a primary obstacle: and yet the energy concentration is much higher, with apparent wind speeds of 50 m/s.
I see no errors on the SAWES website (unlike the numerous inconsistencies in the public reports), but little detailed information, and little power output at a given wind speed.
My perspective therefore remains potentially positive regarding the development of this project and similar projects.
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Oh really. After 18 years, suddenly the genius minds of the AWE analysts cite a need for lighter generators, as ânewâ. Not that the entire world of electric motors and generators wouldnât have eagerly adopted any way to generate more steady-state power using a fraction of the material, for the last 150 years, right? The infinitely gullible minds of the AWE world see it as a brand new âall ya gotta do isâ simple answer! Hey. just make the generators lighter! Cool! Great idea!
âAll ya gotta do isâ make generators way way lighter, while simultaneously multiplying the sustained power output by several times! Cool Pierre! You just cracked the code, and solved the whole AWE challenge! Congratulations! I look forward to enjoying the now-surefire redemption of the Altaeros concept, with added blimp!
Kind of crazy to see you talking this way, from my viewpoint, especially as I was about to explain to you that the high winds at high altitude. especially if increased further by a concentrator, would require MUCH HEAVIER generators for the same rotor size as a regular wind turbine.
Double the windspeed and get 8 times the power, right? Great, your generator will need to weigh 8 times s much! This is just how wind energy actually works. There is no avoiding simple reality.
Such heavy generators would prevent the blimp from flying - too heavy for its volume. The blades would also have to be stronger (heavier), as well as a higher solidity (still heavier), to avoid going supersonic, which lowers efficiency. This is old news.
So Iâd have to say, nice try, but sitting around typing on the internet doesnât change the laws of physics, nor negate all that is known in wind energy. How many generators have you burned out with your new wind energy concepts, Pierre? Yeah, thatâs what I thought. Zero. Well, burn out maybe 10 or 20 generators by exposing your experiments to sustained high winds, and then get back to us with such incomplete and inappropriately optimistic pronouncements of sure future success over disinformation provided by dishonest promoters of bad ideas that donât pass the âsimple arithmeticâ test!
It is currently true, and I noted this here, and evoked the lifetime issue for Makani generators a long time ago. However:
- Generator technology can evolve to more lightness.
- More weight could lead to more hydrogen.
- The progress in hydrogen could accompany the return of large airships, here tethered airships, like the helium-inflated (for now) S1500.
Hi Pierre:
Well, I had a break there for a couple weeks, not feeling the need to keep insisting on facts versus fantasy in our thinking. What you said there falls into my category of âall-ya-gotta-do-isâ thinking. In this case itâs âallâya-gotta-do-is make the generators way, way lighter!â YESSS! Letâs get right on that! Then youâll have completely changed the entire universe of flying everything, and everything can just magically go electric and airborne! Good idea! Make the generators lighter! Let us know when youâve done that!
That sounds a lot like the âflying carâ people who maintain that âWeâre just waiting for batteries to get way lighter!â
Ooh, you mean just throw away the main physical constraints that have simultaneously defined and challenged your concept from the very beginning, by praying for a miracle that the laws of physics will soon be overcome, by the power of prayerâ, right?
Letâs remember where it all started, and go back to basics, and simple arithmetic, OK?
AWE, as an idea, started with the backdrop of generators requiring a certain weight to produce a consistent, sustained level of power, without overheating.
At that point youâre already way out beyond the thinking of most AWE wannabes, who have never built or run a wind turbine, let alone designed one, let alone burned out many generators in fine tuning wind turbine models. So the entire, most basic concept, of generator weight is barely on the radar screens of most AWE dreamers.
OK, so such wind energy wannabes can sit there at their little computers, enthusiastically typing away, sharing their âwisdomâ with the world, and analyze an AWE system that ignores these basic constraints dictated by the laws of physics, that simply lies about their output, without ever backing up those lies with a video showing a meter reaching the stated numbers, or a scatter plot of the power data - forget evidence, weâre all just supposed to magically believe their fantasy-based numbers, and declare it as a workable idea, because âall ya gotta do isâ âmake the generators lighter!â or âadd some hydrogen and convert blimps to hydrogen!â
That is circular reasoning. You start with known constraints, and based on those known constraints, cite a specific configuration, realize it canât work as advertised, so the answer is to throw away the physical constraints you started the discussion with, and âjust pretendâ you can magically wish them away!
Just saying the latest uneconomical way (out of millions of possible ways) to get âsome amount of power from the windâ âat some costâ is now suddenly viable, when a few minutes ago it was NOT viable.
Well, if the given constraints that we start with are invalid, or can be magically waved away by the mere force of positive thinking, then there was never any problem with getting AWE going, and, like the âflying carâ people, we can just go forward with a research endeavor based on fiction rather than fact, dreaming versus measuring, and keep "pretendingâ that the AWE methods being pursued and promoted are valid and promising. Problem solved, everyone can go back to sleep! AWE is now a success, based on a mere digital âwave of the handâ by of a single person, through manipulation of their keyboard at home! Wow, the miracles of modern information technology!
By the way, as we approach the end of the year 2025, does anyone remember the year the âflying carâ people have been promising ârides to the airportâ on a scale that would rationalize the huge cash burn of the many wannabe flying car companies spending their millions, or even billions, over the last 17 years, with still nothing flying?
Did anyone here take a flying car to the airport this year? Can you think of anyone who warned that this would in fact not happen? Yeah. OK now please, letâs everyone just go back to sleep! If we want to live in a dream worlld, sleep is the right place for that! ZzzzzzâŠ
In the video on Can tallest wind turbines on lighter masts be also an alternative to AWES? I reproduced below, we can better assess the diameter of the wind turbines, which appears to be 5.5 m to 6 m: at 0:21, right next to a person, at 3:37, at 4:39âŠ, assuming that the diameter of the balloon is 40 m as specified.
If the generators are Makani-like, this could explain the low total mass indicated, âless than one tonâ, assuming high winds and high rpm.
Thus, the rated (or rather maximal) power (1.2 MW) would be reached for winds of more than 20 or 25 m/s (which I have more or less evaluated in this topic), with a lifespan sufficient to carry out the tests.
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