Slow Chat

Yeah, well, I’ve never read that patent. Know why? Because everything in it is obvious, and always has been. Anyone in wind energy has always known that too. Only people unfamiliar with wind energy would be impressed with such a pedestrian observation as the idea that a kite could produce power flying across the wind. Meanwhile as I’ve been saying for 13 years, if you have to SAY “crosswind” it means you are not familiar with wind energy since all wind power has been crosswind for 1000 years or more. And by the standards of AWE, a regular lift-based wind turbine would qualify as “drag-based”, since the generator causes “drag”, slowing the blades to a fraction of their unloaded crosswind speed. All that shows is that Loyd was one more newbie to wind energy who knew nothing of the established terminology. Nothing more.
Every newbie to wind energy thinks their idea makes things “different”. Just like the stock market - there is a well-known saying in investments: “This time it’s different!”. It;s when newbie investors hit a lucky strike and are making so much money they think their investment can never go down. The veterans try to warn them, but the newbie will insist “this time it;s different”. I’ve explained all this about lift and drag many times now. It still seems like nobody even understands the first thing about wind energy here: A lift-based machine versus a drag-based machine, according to well-established terminology. I feel like I’ve done what I could to educate the enthusiastic perpetual newbies in AWE who have yet to power a single house after well over a billion dollars wasted so far and counting. At least people are having fun! :slight_smile:

Maybe we should coin a new terminology for AWE?

I agree the naming is odd, though in AWE it is quite precise. My guess is that it is named after which direction relative to the lift and drag of the kite that the harvesting force is generated.

Maybe something like «Downwind AWE» and «Braking AWE» would indeed be better. Had we only said this in the 70s it might have stuck

I think saying Loyd is a noob is not very accurate. At least he put in words something that was not really common knowledge at the time, even for wind people

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Tallak: Here’s a photo of a 1500-year-old windfarm


LINK:

What is it, if not kites traveling crosswind?
The problem with AWE perpetual noobs, or at least the worst examples, is they are allergic to facts, ignorant of the art of wind energy and its multi-thousand-year path of development. Wanting to make up their own terminology at odds with established terminology in wind energy, without even being aware of that fact, is just one “canary-in-the-coalmine” of many. To then be in denial of such a simple fact when it is pointed out is another canary, but by that point it is expected. Noobs just act like noobs. Some things never change. I used to wonder the same thing as a kid - how could “lift” be pushing the blades forward? Shouldn’t it just push them back? Takes a while - you gotta get up to speed on what has been learned in these thousands of years. In wind energy most noobs dig in their heels and stay that way. It;s just the way it is, and has always been, as long as I’ve been paying attention anyway.

Hi Doug,

Wind turbines do not move (even considering that the blades rotate), unlike the crosswind AWES.

Wind turbine blades DO move: 100% crosswind, in a circular path. That has been in effect for well over a thousand years. Before that (Ancient Persia), they moved in a circular path downwind and upwind, which is known as a “drag” machine.

Just wanted to through this out there. As I know it has potential uses in Awe.
Be that VAWT, HAWT.
Newton’s third law.
Magnetic induction
Lenz law
Faraday law.
Magnetohydrodymanics
Electromagnetism

At 3:18 minutes in it has a spinning top with fluid inside.
Much like a previous idea I dropped in AWE with Generator using gravitational potential / kinetic energy, with falling mass of ball bearings or magnetic fluid
It must be possible to have spinning top version Working on centrifugal forces. Combined with the levitation. To come up with something almost Sifi esque in nature. I’m aware of maglev generator. Even one appear in the Thor movie intro at 2:42 minutes. It just a question of how AWE wishes to advance. You could end up with something look like.


See blue arrow for reference. Also
Newest Maglev - YouTube
I’m not sure if AWE has a magnetically coupled design. I’ve seen design of some VAWT turbines have levitation elements. As well as kinetic storage systems using maglev elements. So my question is is this something AWE could look at? Especially because of its sustainability factors, easy of manufacturing and assembly, scaling potentials, and so on.
I just like to throw this one In the ring and see what people think.

I think it is only tangentially related to AWE or not a well-developed idea and so shouldn’t be a topic on its own, to avoid cluttering the forum. You could post ideas like this in a mega-thread of all your ideas or in a topic like this slow chat. Feel free to discuss this if you think you have a better solution or if you disagree.

Nice videos.

Fair shout. I through it out there as more of a could we? Hopefully to ask someone more familiar with the concept. I recognised the potential. Wasn’t too sure of pitfalls and where safety concerns would arise. Well just going to leave this here and see what happens.

Link?

I presume it doesn’t matter what axis it happen in. The principles are the same. There are supercooled examples out here with superconducting elements. One example but there are many more World's Largest Superconducting Flywheel Power Storage System Test Machine Completed andTest Operation Started|2015|News Release|Furukawa Electric Co., Ltd.

just for example. I know this is where I start to tread unknowns. but aware that it could be adapted some how? Thought it worth a shout.

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You seem to be talking about Magnetic bearing - Wikipedia

That is just another choice you have to make when you come to it, do the advantages and disadvantages of active magnetic bearings make them a better choice than other kinds of bearings? During prototyping and in airborne use probably no, as I can quickly and cheaply buy a bearing that will work.

tim hunkin - BEARINGS -The Secret Life of Components - a series of guides for makers and designers - Episode 8

Yes that was a good vid. I’m thinking more about lower maintenance cost.
Standard bearing will ware over time. If there’s only a single point of ware. It much easy to fix in the field Than running back a forth to a shop. I’m sure there a few hard waring rock in a field that might do that job. 1428 How To Make A Magnetic Low Friction Bearing - YouTube is just another example.

It also give you the opportunity of a high output from a low input. I know there will be limitations due to inductive forces and material stresses. Most of that is down to particle collisions with the magnetic field. Like a diesel engine but with magnets and conductors. The harder the magnetic field strikes a conductor the more heat will be produced due to induction. Which does lead to fried electronic. Obviously the risk of it melting in high wind increases without cooling. Low friction is alway a good way to go. Siemens have a generator that is totally based around this very idea. I believe that was in the megawatt range. SGen-100A/SGen-1000A | Generator 25-370 MVA | Siemens Global Website | Generators | Siemens Energy Global
If I read the specs right almost 99% efficient. I’m aware that it uses sensors to detect movement in the rotor and will send a corrective signal to the coils.

Even small scale definitely would be worth a play with. Can be a simple as a copper cylinder resting over a magnetic core. I’m not aware of awe using a design like this but I was aware it is being use in other places.

Ultimately my original question was see if AWE could take a small element of one technology and incorporate into a design. With a looming oil crisis, and import being delayed. thinking about others way to achieve the final product must be a plus. Even if that means a concrete at pad with coils embedded into it. with a vawt turbine on top with poly magnetic arrangements.

Hey Freeflying: Your online name reminds me of hang gliding, which falls under what is often referred to as free flight. Ever hang glide or paraglide?
I remember a Windpower trade show where some Asian team had paid for a booth where they demonstrated a vertical-axis turbine, about 4 feet tall, on a table, powered by a household electric fan. Little did they know their exhibit was referred to as “the comedy section” by all the real wind people attending the event. People would go check it out for fun when they got bored, It was not generating any electricity, just spinning. It was a Savonius type machine like the one in the first video. What it demonstrated was that clueless people with no sense of reality could raise enough money to fly across the Pacific and rent a booth at a trade-show. This sort of wind newbie typically makes all the beginner mistakes, but promotes them as breakthroughs. Everyone thought it was funny, - oh and I almost forgot to mention OF COURSE it had magnetic bearings! Why? because when people don’t know anything about making power, they are easily distracted by “shiny objects”, such as magnetic bearings. In reality, such a machine can use ball-bearings without excessive drag. They are choosing the least-powerful type of turbine to begin with, so if they were even tuned into the CONCEPT of actually generating any power, they would not be messing around with Savonius turbines. Savonius turbines are just (seemingly) easy to understand, easy to build, and so beginners and know-nothings in general are drawn to them. They like something they can comprehend, except what they DO NOT comprehend are the facts that:

  1. The moving wind reactive surfaces travel at half the wind speed DOWNWIND, reducing the incident wind speed by 1/2, which reduces force to 1/4 and power to 1/8.
  2. further losses are incurred by the blades traveling upwind, slowing the rotor even more.
    Experienced people know these machines are almost never attached to a meter, and if they are, it is always a VOLTAGE meter. Why? Because it is easy to generate a voltage with a weak turbine since if you generate no current, there is no power being generated, so the beginner can pat themselves on the back that their little junk-pile actually SPINS, which they imagine is a huge accomplishment. By the time they see VOLTAGE on a meter, they imagine they have conquered global warming and won the lottery, all in one fell swoop
    I’m going to try to say this nicely, but, from the viewpoint of wind veterans, only a complete idiot would waste their time and money applying an unnecessary maglev bearing to such a waste of time, but it is not uncommon. Why? Because “maglev” sounds “scientific”. In reality, it is “a solution in search of a problem”, and a true “no-brainer” suggestion often made by newbies and beginners for ALL types of wind turbines. Since they have never MADE any power, they have no idea what factors actually affect power output, so if it might consume 1 Watt to spin a bearing, and their terrible-design turbine would be lucky to generate 2 Watts, - wow, they doubled the output by using maglev bearings!
    Again, I’m gonna try to be nice about this, but every time I see a post from you, it promotes another typicl beginner/newbie wrong idea, over and over. In a REAL wind energy forum, you would be shouted down over just about every post. This particular forum is similarly populated by people without much, if any, real experience in wind energy, and it is a place for new ideas, so nobody is shouting you down here, but it is mainly because of the general lack of experience here, just so you know. It would be nice for you, if you are truly interested in wind energy, to get up to speed on the subject before trying to inject all the beginner/newbie known-bad-ideas, because it is really a well-developed art, with thousands of years of history, and a LOT of accumulated knowledge. Like any well-developed art, a person who is not up to speed on the present state of the art is unlikely to improve upon the art just shooting from the hip with some first impressions. Just sayin’… Always good to be curious and want to advance a technology, but so far all I’m seeing is the most typical newbie/beginner nonsense. There is already enough nonsense in AWE. The only way it will ever succeed is if people who know something about wind energy get involved. It is really amusing yet disturbing to see this continue for 13 years now - all newbies all the time. What I was used to was wind energy forums where most of the participants either knew what they were talking about, or at least wanted to learn. In this forum, on the other hand (or any AWE forum) it is ME who is MUCH more likely to be shouted down (or just deleted) for even having ANY IDEA what I am talking about, which is alternately frowned upon, or simply verboten, in these circles. Just so you know, from an actual wind person. This message is powered by a 10 kW wind turbine on a 120-foot tower. Thank You for listening. :slight_smile:
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Do you have a link?

I can’t quite tell if your bragging or not?

But hey oh what do you know? Fair enough I’m little greenhorn when it comes to wind energy. however when it come to assembling things. I live and breath that stuff. I wouldn’t have called it nonsense though I’m just viewing this much like Lego. To me don’t sound like a bad idea. Owing to the fact that like you say

I was trying to come from that place even if I wasn’t all to aware of the day to day. I’m only putting together what I’m aware of. It all a step along the way. Can sense be made of it sure. It never a mistake to explore ideas especially ones that you haven’t encountered or don’t know all that well. Sure things have plagued AWE. each and everyone here comes from many walks of life with various degrees of awareness and knowledge of the subject. I can fling a spanner along with the best of them. When my gear start to turn an I understand I usually can nudge things along. What you describe is a know thy enemy situation.

  1. Drag
  2. Friction
  3. Back emf
  4. Material fatigue
  5. Unknown hazards
  6. Issues with material supply
  7. Environmental stresses on products.
  8. Reach in wider population.
  9. Personal level of understanding

Approach is everything. I’m try to work with the core tenant and keep it simple enough. that in a apocalyptic situation you can tackle that junk pile and keep going. I’m fairly sure that, where I am we have 120 of the big buggers. Sat in an array of shore in the English Channel. You know it’s all a matter of perspective. So there a small chance some of the power it took tho write this came from there. Goal and focus. It all a learning curve. I’m just greatful I was able to achieve something however minor.

AWE need to be like the American war machine in ww2. Yes the Sherman tanks were not able to take a panzer hit. but there was so many of them that it didn’t matter because it was easier to produce. At various point during that war the American out stripped German production many times over…the same was true for soviet Russian and their main battle tank.

Btw I’ve come close to hand gliding on a few occasions as former air scout. I’d like to hand glide at some point as I’ve alway imagined what it would be like. We even see our local police paraglider the one with a prop strapped to it. It is a huge sport round here come summertime. Definitely would transfer neatly to awe applications. So thank you for the suggestions :+1: I must admit it been awhile since my last opportunity to take flight. Freeflying you could say it a bit of a dream.

The last amount of electricity I made was after I helped my brother fix his car after the clutch died. That was a while ago. There always car batteries to consider. Due to the deep cycling.
In the last 20 years thing have come on a long way. No one would have expect to get the amp hours out of a battery like we have today. Sure there are gaps in my knowledge but that is true for everybody. It all about find those bits you don’t know and learning from them. Glad for the pointer. If I had a few million to throw at it I wouldn’t be using duck tape. I would be using something far more clever. far more homogeneous in design. If I can’t bolt it together in an afternoon it simply not worth my time. Like I said before I’m taking what I have and running with it. If I get something :sunglasses: if I don’t I had fun making it and exploring the concept. Sure it make some giggle themselves silly like a monty pythons sketch. Regardless if there a simple way and design. I’d like to find one.

Maybe a little, but it is not a turbine I built, just the best brand of small turbine, requiring more just to keep running than the electricity is worth, even if the entire installation is free, which mine was, considering it came with this ranch property, already installed. Well actually I had to buy a used one of the same model and replace the original which I can now rebuild due to installer error and faulty tech support, which burned out a generator. So now I have two - one to run and one to rebuild.
The main reason I sometimes add that tagline of being powered by wind energy is, over the 13 years+ of these AWE forums, I have yet to see any person or team ever utilizing wind energy as a power source. Not once, ever. Zero experience or even familiarity with wind energy in these circles, where “anything goes” but nothing ever takes hold. This includes all the BIG BIG BIG names, from the largest corporations like Google, highly-publicized efforts said to emanate from major technical universities like MIT, Delfts, etc., and highly-funded and highly-publicized “teams” that seem to regularly emerge, tell the world how many houses they “will” power “next year”, then disappear. Of the hundreds or thousands of homes promised to be powered by AWE, today there is not a single home powered by AWE. The point I’m making is that for most AWE wannabe’s, generating electricity from the wind is just a wish, a talking point, a fantasy, not a daily reality. I’m trying to remind people that wind energy is a real thing, not just a fantasy talking point.
When we had a yahoo group for “small wind”, the discussions were around how well systems people had built or bought were running, what went wrong, how they fixed it, etc. Also a lot of theory was discussed. Of course you would get the occasional newbie post about a Savonius turbine, maybe with maglev bearings, but they were about fantasy, not working systems anyone used. They were posts by outsiders who thought they were introducing real wind people to new ideas, not realizing they were just the typical and well-known “bad” ideas.
Wind energy has developed to such an extent that by now it provides a significant percentage of all electricity in the world. The machinery is so advanced you could compare it to the world’s best supercars.
Now I’ve explained this many times to all the AWE newbies, but I’ll say it one more time for your benefit: Would you show up at the Indianapolis 500 (auto racing) with a wheelbarrow and expect to qualify? What if your wheelbarrow used “maglev bearings”? How hard would people laugh? You’d be lucky if someone didn’t die from laughing so hard, unable to breathe, right? Well what do you think a little Savonius turbine on a plywood base is in wind energy? It is a wheelbarrow in a world of supercars, that’s what. The maglev bearings, sexy as they seem, are 100% irrelevant - a wheelbarrow is a wheelbarrow, and if maglev bearings for any wind turbine were a good idea, someone would probably be using them by now. Literally, the only reason newbies love maglev is their turbines are so crappy they are lucky to even spin at all, so maglev “seems” like “a great idea”. In reality wind turbines make so much power that the real problem is controlling it at the top end, not coaxing it to merely spin. The generator provides thousands of times the resistance to spinning as the bearings. But newbie turbines are lucky to even have a generator. If so they probably just sit there.
What about your car, does it use magnetic bearings? Why not go on an automotive website and “introduce” a push-cart with magnetic bearings? Would anyone care? Would they delete your account?
This is the second AWE discussion group, with a total of 13 years and counting of wannabe innovators posting random whacky notions that just pop into their heads. So far it has led nowhere.
Today the “big news” is the supposed purchase and shipping of AWE systems. I guess we’re up to about one per year. Still no news of them actually in use.
Really, from a wind energy perspective, it is all so silly that its hard to believe. So keep on thinking, I applaud the creativity and urge to make a difference, just so you know where the whole thing is really at.

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I think there so many potentials that its somewhere people get lost. Much like candy store. You walk into the candy store but your only allowed one option because you tight for cash. Yes your spoiled for choice but in away thats its major downside. I think many of the upstart get so far but fail because the can’t reach there target audience. I’m fairly sure that down to social or political interaction. Its like mass adhd where everyone is into different things and are not aware of there options. so finds it difficult to connect.

Im aware of people who have cobbled something together. Then had my drop wide open at some of the Dutch efforts with there wind farms. Plywood doesn’t make for the lightest of turbine. I definitely wouldn’t think anyone would like to change solid bearings every 3 months. depending the bearing?that can get expensive. should they ware out. Never mind the fact that I’ve seen on a few testing videos of them shattering completely. Once they become overclocked. That like being below decks with splinters flying everywhere. I know it takes a lot more to make a turbine. Even more to get it to market. Once safety check are signed off. Definitely something management would need to check over.
Would I turn up to the indie 500 with a wheel barrow? That would depend on solely on the criteria. Even if I could modify it? Definitely sound like an episode of extreme Viking to me. Would a double plenum design count? I know the indie 500 can get real messy. So a role cage is a must. I’ve seen plenty of memes with Aladdin at the indie 500 racing a magic carpet. I don’t see why a converted wheel barrow would be any different. Plenty of mech tippers to choose from. Would be much like wacky racers. I don’t believe there ever be a hovercraft entry to the indie 500 let alone one with eco credentials. Colin furze might even have a go. He’s even got a wind powered tumble dryer so who knows?

As for controls for over clocking. I’m aware that there are examples where they installed regenerative braking much like a Rev limiter. to stop the whole system gone into an induction induced nightmare. Where it all goes bang.Definitely seen a few self destruct vid for that. Definitely would pass on that. I certainly would not want the paperwork to land on my desk. Then have to decide how many pages are they going to need. That where I would delegate. To one with more experience. For me, paperwork, more over completing it. is a nightmare in itself. I’m luck if I can scan 50 pages without a headache. Definitely a small bite kind of guy there. I know what I can build some time with tooth picks. I know how far I can go with what I know. Then call in some who can check it over. Reality checks alway helps sign of those balances. It always comes Down to innovator vs inventor. I find myself trying to innovate with what is known to me from what I learn. An inventor knows things others don’t. I much prefer the tool box of simple things. than totally crazy where the bloody hell did that come from? Most is already known it just about mixing and matching. Then baking that cake. Especially with limited resources. I’m tempted to mention solvated electrons or isothermal coolant. but I will leave that for another day. I wouldn’t wand you all dying of laughter as I monty python my way to ooohh shiny.

Sorry, but every further word you type just digs you deeper into the hole you are digging yourself into. Knowing nothing about a given field is not a good preparation for improving it. I have yet to see anything meaningful. Bearings in wind turbines typically last 20 years or more. Overspeed (overclocking as you are calling it) is the main challenge in wind energy. Preventing it is not easy, but of course newbies always have some quick “all ya gotta do is” type answer. I would recommend you give it up now because I do not see you going anywhere in wind energy. And I have to seriously consider why I’m still wasting my time on these “open” forums since after 13 years all we have is new perpetual newbies acting just like the defunct old perpetual newbies. I keep telling myself to just stop posting or answering posts here. I try to give people the real story, but so many people are allergic to facts and think they know everything while not even having the slightest clue…

Yep I do that looking for answers. 13 years on forums make you a veteran.its worth picking your brains alittle. The point we are both make with the development of AWE is both of us are yet to encounter a lead with very real world applications. Hence when I mentioned candy store. As all engineering get bogged down in the details. There are people out there trying things out. Giving a go. Those ones have limited resources or even access to the kind of big things most do dream and fantasise about. There probably a million others try various things for example ……

I’d say there definitely efforts being made on every level. I get you have a despise for this kind of thing. Pet hates and bug bears which is fine. It doesn’t make it invalid in the slightest. Without those will to make inquires Awe will stagnate. So you Can’t find riches without digging a few holes somewhere. Is a say I’m reminded of. I’m like this because of fact based inquiry. If I don’t know something all too well. the only way I have to learn is to seek out those who know and speak with them. I’d admit it been a pretty long road. Up to here. I’m interested in how they do it and why? There will alway be a Goldilocks zone when it come to development. It part of that paradigm. Im loving the feed back.

I’m definitely hyper focused on how can you build the bloody damn thing. To Have that meaningful impact. I’m under no delusion how difficult this could be. Many have sacrificed themselves on that altar and achieve nothing or very little at all. Just raising awareness is a victory for some. If that lead on into the next move ant the next? That has got to be a good thing for everybody. It might just be a phase for me. I go through them. Who am I to Deny or disappoint you there? I be there first person to admit my limitations. I have reasons for doing that. I’m not afraid to let someone far more knowledgable take the lead. I commend you there. I will alway try to come from my knowledge base whenever i try to make or design anything. I don’t consider anything I do to be absolutely brand spanking new. Nope. In fact it’s quiet the opposite… I like to use a core of what is tried and tested. I’d bee happy just assembling them. We all seen roller coasters stopped with the power of lenz law. With magnetic braking. I doubt it would be any different out there in the field. 100 feet up on a mast. Ive listened an know, you know where things will overspeed and clock out… i hazard a guess you know where the material limits are? I get that many of the current turbine system are dialled in for that very reason. Otherwise turbine say no. Then there an awful mess to clean up. Most engineering’s I’ve encountered fear those days. Ive heard the major groan when they hear of it. It has alway been a running thing in the office of how many sheets of paper will it be this time? Health and safety accident reporting. I don’t think I’ve ever met engineer who doesn’t loathe the paperwork. Because i know many would like to kick back and fling spanners all day long. You answer because you believe that it the right thing to do. that I applauded you for having the patience of a saint. Just for that.

I’m going to leave it here as I fear I might just give you an aneurism.
So thank you. I hope you have a nice day.

Below are a short video helping to understand the basic operating elements of a Maglev Wind Turbine, then a website for building one.

Some features could perhaps be useful for some AWES architectures where classic ball bearings are not easily implementable.

Hi @dougselsam, what you call “the real world of wind energy” does not intend to do AWES. Current wind turbines do not fly. Currently the reeling yo-yo mode seems to have some advance (average 92 kW (figure 15) with 12 m/s wind speed). And as you often mention this mode of production would not be used for ground-based wind turbines. But AWES aim to be flying wind energy systems.

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