What took away a lot of credibility from AWE was not Makani’s failure per se, but the fact that the entire official AWE community was supporting this project without seeing the prohibitive factors that other projects also share.
The criticisms came from Mike Barnard, rather than from within. What about the Power to space use ratio, instead of the misleading measure by the kite area without taking account of the tether length?
Sure.
In reference to previous comments. For example 4 Sets Wooden Water Wheel Toys DIY Children Technology DIY Assembly Home Use | eBay
When I was speaking about design. the basic principles are transferable. Demonstration of cost effective manufacturing.
guerillia mechanics 101
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Simple coils wound at 1.2 mm wire 250 turns is fairly standard. That is usually in-line with know voltages amps.
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Pva glue being a favourite fibre seal. It is used heavily use in reenactment shields to hold things together and make it more durable. It would stiffen the hemp fibres. also fire proof them much like starlite. Google that if you don’t believe me?
https://e-magnetsuk.com magnets are pre rated.
If this dip stick can figure that out. From a mental picture. It don’t take much to rig that to a kite softwing or hard wing verities. Id love to find a chart of projected voltage and amperage. Per coil. As I know it will be in that. But here one way to find out.
CALCULATING COILS FOR HF by SM0VPO
You know the math that follows. I wouldn’t want to take that opportunity way to find out for yourself. Creative license be what it is.
If access you can get the materials. then it fairly simple from then on to find out. That is a sure thing for a start. Definitely worth considering. As it doesn’t brake the bank to find out.
I hopefully cleared that one up. Anymore questions don’t be afraid to ask? Maybe I can paint a picture if that helps? Maybe of a looping kite? With devices attached. Nice to know my vocabulary got me into trouble. Check my thinking. I reckon it is do able. And fairly cheaply.
Just to make sure nobody but “idiots” were in attendance? OK I am kidding. 
Wait, is this a joke, like “Why did the chicken cross the road”? (Still kidding.)
I’m sure geographic proximity played a role, as well as simple curiosity and not wanting to miss out on any important developments in wind energy, should they occur.
The issue is not whether the concept of AWE is interesting to techies - of course it is!
But it also seems to attract people who think “Well this is weird, and so am I, and I don’t really fit in anywhere else, so maybe this is for me.” Nice they found a place, but that is not exactly a compelling resume.
Then there are all the kids looking for a job, thinking the people who would hire them really understand their projects. The kids think “Well, kites are fun, windsurfing is fun, and I sure like having fun, and these people seem pretty confident we will solve global warming “by next year”, so this job is for me.”
So you really can’t blame the kids.
But at some point, when you see how the Makani aircraft actually flew (not very well), someone there at a pretty high level was not doing their job very well.
Also, it seemed like poor judgement to have put that much time, effort, and capital into such a large-scale single prototype, to where if it failed they just gave up. They could have built ten smaller ones for the same money. But even that is not the main point.
The main point is this: From majoring in physics and engineering, I know there are ways to predict performance, on paper, that would amaze most people. And it doesn’t even require computers - the Boeing fleet was designed mostly using slide rules while smoking cigarettes and pipes, before they even had decent calculators, let alone personal computers. The 737 Max crashes and scandal were because Boeing no longer felt capable of designing a new jetliner. Kind of amazing - the decline of western civilization?
So from all the AWE hype, I figured Makani should know what they were doing.
But when you saw their kite barely able to climb through the upward half of its circular path, the whole story fell apart. Some people have more money than brains I guess, right?
I had flagged what I think was a main problem, with a fairly straightforward solution, but even then, not sure you could rescue the concept, even solving that issue.
But anyway, the point I’m trying to make here is that in aeronautics, especially with the advantage of computers and a big budget, and the ability to run scale models to verify predicted performance, I do not see how the expected and required level of expertise could have been in place for that project. And yes, especially since we are all now so accustomed to Google having “all the answers”, all day every day, for that company specifically to fail in such a disappointing way after all that hype, well…
Oh great and wise Doug… Do the IEA or NREL count as having any expertise in wind?
Probably not as you are not participating in advising them.
Yeah, a little wisdom goes along way. Roddy you are changing the subject. We’re talking about the people involved in AWE projects to develop AWE systems.
Of course eventually NREL etc. had to at least acknowledge the mere existence of AWE efforts, due to the profuse publicity. They had to take a look at it, if for no other reason than to be able to answer the question that many, including congress, were asking, which was whether AWE constituted anything significant to consider at this time or in the foreseeable future, from what they could determine.
I’m sure they did not use the term “idiots” in their assessment, but I know that is what they were thinking. I’m well acquainted with quite a few of them, and I know how they think. They think like knowledgeable wind people (oh no!), and they are used to debunking the “Professor Crackpots” of the world. Usually it is another “drag” machine…
Now just because NREL etc. don’t jump on the hype bandwagon and start gleefully promoting it out of proportion doesn’t rule out AWE progress. And knowing these NREL people as I do, they are not going to shut the door on the entire idea. They will always leave a window of hope open, since there is nothing about the idea of AWE that violates the rules of physics.
But as far as I know, they are not working to develop any AWE technology per se. I don’t think they have any AWE project or even a favorite technology.
So I would say, don’t be a wise-ass. It’s like what the two guys running the previous forum liked to do, start a conversation then slowly try to shift the meanings of words or the topic itself to try to “win” whatever served as one more “crackpot” “argument” in their minds.
I had quite a back-and-forth with Santos over some ladies running a project at GE wind to develop blades with a metal frame covered with fabric. If think it had some government funding. I was very skeptical, and of course Santos was always pushing cloth as a working surface, so he would try to leverage the project to bolster his “fabric working surface” position.
Then, coincidentally, I happened to attend the AWEA Windpower convention in nearby Las Vegas that year, and there was GE with a display of the ladies’ cloth-covered blade project.
Coincidentally (what luck!) I met GE Wind’s Director of International Research right then and there, and asked him about it. He did not take it the least bit seriously and dismissed it as a nothing-burger. Of course my directly conferring with their top research guy and relaying the information back meant nothing to Santos (allergic to facts), and did not even slow him down in his endless nonsense.
More recently, we know Santos had finally gotten “in touch” with the NREL personnel charged with looking into the whole AWE subject, and I’m sure he found himself in the exact same position as talking to me, hearing all the same exact stuff he heard from me for so many years, and I think that is why we don’t hear from those guys anymore.
Santos was always very impressed by “authority figures”, and I suspect the NREL people “shut him down”. Like I kept saying about the “crackpots”, eventually, they “quietly go away”.
Ding Ding Ding - wait - new information alert:
I just now had a phone call from an old friend, an actual wind person, who developed and manufactured a real, well-known brand of small wind turbine, the Lakota. I let him live here on the ranch, rent free for a year, after he came back from China, because we wind people stick together.
It is hard to believe these coincidences, but the first thing he asked me was whether I had ever heard of a company called Skysails. I said yes, explaining their two concepts of kite-reeling and ship-towing, including their bankruptcy, subsequent relaunch, and ensuing announcements about “a factory” and “first AWE system shipped”, but how that was over a year ago and we haven’t heard anything new since then.
NOW THE BIGGER COINCIDENCE:
He went on to tell me he had talked with a mutual friend of ours, a former wind engineer at NREL (female by the way), now independent, who told him that NREL had been inundated by “300 companies” pursuing “AWE”, and that they were totally disgusted at how stupid they all were, and that half of the concepts were “drag machines”.
I interpret that to mean half were “kite-reeling” (which, of course, the unwashed “idiots” call "lift machines). Anyway, the word I got was that the NREL people were basically disgusted at having to field so many “crackpot” inquiries. So there you have it, once again, actual inside information from real wind people. The song remains the same. I hope that helps. 
Indeed Dave Santos is one of the experts who produced the NREL report.
Hi Doug, Loyd’s formula gives the same power for both flygen and kite-reeling. Flygen are slowed down by 1/3 due to the drag of the turbines aloft, Betz limit being 16/27 as for any wind turbine. Kite-reeling are slowed down also by 1/3 due to the swept area going downwind at 1/3 wind speed, Betz limit being only 4/27 as for drag turbines like Savonius. But even the value of 4/27 is far from being reached during crosswind operations, because in both cases the kite travels unnecessarily (except for flight considerations) very large trajectories.
And also:
The finalization of a test campaign for a future project. Sounds like the promise of a promise…
How many blades? Well ………
Though this interesting enough to share.
Turgo turbines do a pretty good job.
He say 10-28 blade for a multi bladed turbine.
30-40% efficient though I bet with a few tweaks that could be higher 60% or above.
If it could be like
But airborne.
I been trying to imagine what a involute would look like for such a system. If anyone would like to chime in? I’d welcome the input.
OK, back to windergarten
14 years of AWE hype, enough time to go to undergrad college, get a masters degree, and then get a PhD in wind energy (if there is such a thing) - TWICE, and yet we’re still explaining basic things like what type of wind turbine is good for what use, on this “most advanced in the world” wind energy discussion.
This guy in the first video DOES NOT REALLY KNOW WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.
You can forget most of what he said.
The reason so many blades are used to create a high-solidity rotor is because of the use. Height has pretty-much nothing to do with it. So the guy’s main theme is wrong. The use is pumping enough water to keep cattle from dying of thirst. Therefore, consistent pumping is the priority. Efficiency is not the main driver. The ability to pump water from deep underground, even if only light winds occur for long periods, is the design driver. Running such a pump requires torque, not speed. The high solidity of the rotor, combined with the steep pitch of the blades, make the turbine able to run such a low-speed reciprocating pump even in light winds. These turbines can never be expected to reach even half of the efficiency of a regular wind turbine. But they are not expected to. They are expected to keep cattle from dying of thirst. They need to pump no matter what the weather, so they are made to work in light winds.
Modern water-pumping wind energy systems often DO use regular modern wind turbines to drive an ELECTRIC PUMP. Yes wind turbines produce better in the higher, smoother winds at higher heights, but plenty of small turbines operate quite satisfactorily at much lower heights than most people would imagine. I’ve had SuperTwins with 2 blades per rotor producing great consistent power at a 14-foot height for years. Right now we have a Firefly with dual 2-blade rotors running at about an 8-foot height - works fine.
AND out of several attempts to use farm windmills for generating electricity, I’m not aware of any in use today. They usually use a fan belt to achieve ratio gearing to run a generator and the whole thing is inefficient and problematic regarding the fan belt. Why require 22 blades and gearing when you could use 2 or 3 blades to directly-drive a generator.
NO wind turbine works well in a “built environment”. Why? Well, I hate to bring it up again, but (ready for this one?) Wind energy requires wind! I know, it sounds crazy, but it is true. And if your wind turbine will be blocked by all the houses around you, trees, buildings, hills, barns, billboards, etc. Wind energy requires being placed in a consistently-strong wind resource, ideally smooth wind undisturbed by any obstacles. So you need either a tower tall enough to get at least 30 feet above obstacles, or a lot of open space upwind for a low-height installation. The “30 feet” is a standard rule of thumb for small turbines, since turbulence of any kind is bad for your turbine and bad for performance. OK kids, windergarten is over for the moment. Time to go have your milk and cookies and take a nap. 
In short, it really helps anyone with a desire to pursue wind energy in any capacity to learn the basics before trying to improve upon what already is. Most, like this guy in the video, come in knowing nothing, and assuming nobody else knows anything either, so they can “explain” everything THEY DON’T UNDERSTAND, thinking the whole time they are “educating” the unwashed masses. But of course they miss the point that it is they themselves who ARE the know-nothing unwashed masses.
I will not bother telling this crowd exactly WHY the farm windmill rotor is less efficient. Learn something about the art of wind energy and you might figure it out. But I doubt it. We have to save SOME knowledge for people who are willing to get up to speed on the simple kindergarten basics of wind energy on their own. We can’t just tell all the know-nothing idiots everything - that would be spoiling an important national resource: people who know nothing! Oh well, there is always college. Or read a pamphlet or two on wind energy…
Oh, and as for using high-solidity, steep-pitch water-type rotors for wind energy, no, they can’t work anywhere near as efficiently for an open flow (wind) turbine - the air will just go around the whole thing, and what does go thru will generate with lower efficiency, and I’m not going to explain it all cuz this is supposed to be a place where advanced ideas are discussed. Kindergarten should have been over 14 years ago.
This situation of wind know-nothings somehow thinking they have any idea what they are talking about, just throwing out whatever occurs to them with zero knowledge of the art, never changes. Never has, never will I’m sure. Have fun, that’s the most important thing!
Oh, and whatever you do, make sure you never learn anything about wind energy! That would spoil all your fantasies!
I’m not asking anyone to explain efficiency, if a farm style turbine.
If I was In a more humoured mood windergarten could mean many things.
Win the garden, win derg atum, more invoking of divine powers/ divine inspiration?
All this boils down to is a gas that flows around an object and creates power.
Wasn’t it viktor schauberger studies in to fluid dynamics that advance the field? I seem to recall some saying standing in the shoulders of giant.
As I don’t often have the time of mind to reinvent the wheel. Its worth considering and enquiring down all avenues. I’m obviously to stupid to comprehend by your standards.or even comprehend why you sometimes disparage engineering as a whole? must mean I’m on to a winner somewhere? With keep it simple stupid. Remember me and the mother of all other monkeys. will end up being the one that have builds it some day. I don’t thing that they will want to if it to hard to understand or access. FYI my Buisness design meeting went well last night. So I will have something to show for the efforts. It not size that matters it how you use it! Put the post up as a curiosity. I don’t think I’ve seen you back up your sources? I wasn’t around 14 years ago. To know how it all went down! We have established we are all at various different stages understanding. So what if I’m a beginner? eating fish dinners. The point here is I’m having a go. For more of a see for myself. It would be more beneficial for me to know the technicals. than a surman from the great Doug himself. You know they guy at the end of the pews. thats me! I fell a sleep long while ago. I got bored. Mind you, I was very hopeful the good lord would provide. So Milk and cookies would be nice 
if your offering, how do you serve it? I’m fresh out of biscuits. What milks on offer? I’m sure this will cause a few laughs! But hey oh there we go………
Might help to learn to spell “business”…
You seem to always put the “i” in the wrong place.
When I first started responding to this post I mistook the symbol for Roddy.
But then I started noticing, Roddy wouldn’t be saying this stuff
Then I realized who it was. Oh course.
Anyway I was not responding to you personally, per se.
I was responding to what was written, regardless of who posted it.
What you came up with is just the same typical know-it-all/know-nothinhg wind-kindergarten crap that people like me and Paul Gipe have been debunking for the 14 years of AWE hype, and also many years before that. None of this stuff is new. It’s just new to you. It’s ancient to us.
A few more blades and we have the main rotor printed, got to love mate who can help. Nearly off the printer. Let the fun being!
Nice bit of printing
Thank you very much🙏 16blades of loveliness. It might have the main rotor was taken 14hrs the audition extra for holding magnets perhaps another 4hr. .2mm layer hight
Look like we are going to have a unit coming under £50. if I’m incredibly lucky not much more than £20. well worth the money. as I can use it in multiple projects. Got a few more bit to add but we’re off to a flying start. Sometime asking the odd friend comes in really handy. What really great about the design it could work on variable density fluids. Though I don’t think it would withstand a custard assault. Being non Newtonian.
It been made like Lego for easy of construction and print. It a good testing platform. Can’t wait to have fun with it.
I saw the picture and immediately knew who it was…
You yourself wrote: the more rotors, the more power.
So why not: the more blades, the more power? 
There a few articles on google scholar about mutibladed turbines.
Can’t say how well it work? on the larger scale. but if what he’s built is anything to go by? Anyone feel those wind of change? Larger scale sintering process and additive manufacturing is showing real promise. If anyone can get something airborne its you guys. Be it Finials, shuttlecocks or a variety of fancy creations. Having seen the kind of thing you get up to thought it worthy note to add.
The more idiots and the more group-selfies, the more “hundreds of homes” powered by AWE systems “next year”.
BTW, the guy in the video is off on a tangent.
He doesn’t really “get it”.
He must be bad
He called his turbine Daisy 
Classic warning 
sign
Red flag 
