HAWT is operational at all scales, and significant electricity production have long existed in the commercial phase. AWE is eternally in the prototype phase and still produces little or nothing in the commercial phase. It is therefore not possible to compare them.
In a sense, @Freeflying is not wrong to invoke technologies that are very unlikely to succeed, in an AWE environment that is also very unlikely to succeed.
I dont think its exactly comparable. For AWE a lot of effort has been made to prove that it is not impossible. Then you have the gap between Ā«not impossibleĀ» and Ā«a good ideaĀ». AWE is somewhere between those extremes.
Many of these other things, one could simply say cost effectiveness is simply impossible
Finally making sense. That what I was looking for vortex shedding. Car spoilers do exactly that. For extra traction. Itās a simple as hiding behind a buttressed wall. Well aware there nothing new in this regards. Perhaps it wonāt get as far as some of the other mentalist. as I donāt have the funds or resources let alone the reach. It how 7m/s gust round a building can be amplified. To 30-40m/s. Iām merely toying and experiment with concepts idea and principles because I can. Tai chi take what you have and make the most of it. Its why they claim they hardly touch you but throw you 10m backwards. No different for wind energy. Big brain bods like yourself with mountain more experience know things I donāt it. why I come here. I can learn from that. so thank you there! @PierreB @dougselsam sure there is economy of scale. From what I noticed and PierreB point out AWEs gets stuck in an infinite design loop for one reason or another. At some point you going to need to go into full scale production. If you donāt know what your looking for or even where to find it. You will be choked off. And wonāt even get airborne. I was all way told it what is the goal? And build a picture from that. Now success broardens itās metric. It the greatest sin of all design engineeringās to go ālet reinvent the wheelā. That sure to deprive you of time money and effort. Because people forgot to keep it simple. It also help build a picture of good design practices. In most cases vortex shedding is a pain. But it not without it benefits if properly utilised. I recall James dyson holding a competition for designers to make use of vortex shedding. A design they came up with wall a polygonal tetrahedron. I know it possible it something.
Iām yet to try for myself. If I was to get brutally simple. It would be steel, plate biofoil coils. With magnetic induction. For easy of assemblyā¦ if I really wanted to be cheep throw in a few 7*2 and old washing machine drum. Then go ālet have some funā Appreciate the pointer and the demo of the pressure wave. Even a board placed at 57degress from horizontal would have the same effect. The point Iām making is when it come to easy of manufacturing. you will have people design something then, expect an assembly like to build it. The fewer step that has the quicker you will get that to market. The bigger your reach will be. By what I can make out many of you know the mechanics involved hereā¦ and from that, I get yes it could work. but good luck figuring it out. It been an argument throughout engineering. do you go with one single big unit. Or multiple smaller units. Looking at the drawbacks with each solution helps. Iām glad there are people that can fill me in. thats always a two way thing. I might suprise you one day with a working prototype. If a can pursade my folk to part with an old dryer drum.
As Doug aptly explains, āinnovationsā like DAWT have all failed for HAWT. You have to wonder why it would be better with AWESā¦
Well if you take dawt to mean pet or cuddle? Unlikely. I was going say something grandiose about the jet stream That would be the wrong answer. Most of the companies go big go bust. I have been looking into this a little more this morning, Wind Turbine Calculator [HAWT and VAWT]
Toyed with a few numbers for a small scale demonstration. got some numbers for example 123 watts Iām unsure if that daily, weekly or monthly. for a turbine thats only .5m across in 6.5m/s windspead. Which is average for the south coast in the English Channel. That would be 744rpm and a torque factor of 0.4373Nm. I looked at the average home electric use which was 242Kwh a month according to ovo energy. Average Electricity Usage in the UK: How Many kWh Does Your Home Use? | OVO Energy
I donāt think Iām going braking the bank anytime soon. Experimenting as I said. target production materials cost shouldnāt exceed Ā£500, be lucky if it break Ā£100 for a test run. provided I recycle parts I can get for freeā¦ I reckon it could be assembled in an afternoon and have answers by teatime. Iām not purely focused on DAWT devices. As It not the only option out there. What I hope to achieve is a meccano set of parts. that your everyday layman can bolt together in an afternoon. Plug and play with. I donāt mind outsourcing. To Those with expertise. If I can pull it off. It would be a major coup. For the energy sector as a whole as it would reduce carbon dependence massively.
Yes many have failed to raise the interest and capital and keep their heads. I know we all would like to see a jet turbine style wind turbine in operation. Iām not kidding myself to think Iām the one to do that. I Canāt just go by a junk pratt and whitney for a scrap mod. It is out of my league. With a million dollar price tag in some cases.
It might up just save failing aerospace production centres to switch over to wind energy. Even go through the production and modification process. There an 10 hectares site near me that I know of. Magellan aerospace former site at Bournemouth is one such site. If ever the uk wanted a new production centre specifically for wind energy. There is an opening if AWEs ever wanted one. Potential Ā£100 million there if someone gets it right? Judging past efforts http://www.wind-works.org/cms/index.php?id=637. cost, reach and understanding the operating environment. played a major role in their downfall. When when they got too big for their boots. It might work small scale? With batch production. but I donāt even see it being profitable large scale. As cost would far out strip demand. What the ducted guys proved is an idea, a test bed. For development. It is only a guesstimate but you may only get 0.0001% of total economic market share. Shiny products doing most the damage. Potential investors being too broke to invest. Obviously didnāt reach the intended audience or potential investment for future research and development. They also over stated their case. Before bringing it to market. Which must of had some effect.
It really need to be affordable for an average joe to fit one to his house. Coming up 8 billion People with energy needs. Not everyone will share The same goals and directions on energy. Ducts do give AWES sustainability if renewable are used over long periods of time. 20 years or more. Light weight and portable. Especially if it skin on frame construction. Casting would be easier to make but would have a penalty weight wise. Long game is need here. No more than 50kg maximum as an ordinary would be able to lift it. Optimally 10-15kg is what you would aim for. I get the, know the competition part. Why you find a niches when you donāt wonāt rock the boat.
Or you go really big and have a megastructure made form concrete. With aperture of 1mile wide and several 100m tall. With multiple power units . Located in the structure. Theses work on volume. Much like a industrial grouting gun. Big fish little fish theroy. As a larger mass can influence a smaller one. Enough rambling i need some lunch.
@Freeflying, some topics like A "crackpot" design or A "Professor Crackpot" 3-D-printing wind "project"... could be more suitable. You can have fun with counter-rotating propellers or bladeless or both, DAWT and similar, Maglev wind turbines, Savonius-like and everything you want.
Also consider that certainly AWE is struggling, but the teams are doing serious scientific and technical work, even if the results are pending.
Consider also the basics of wind turbine, and in particular Betzās law. True innovations are far from fancy ātechnologiesā to wow newbies.
Actually in wind energy, a jet turbine style would not work out. Too many inline rotors - all you need is one rotor in line with the wind to capture the Betz coefficient from a given area. This is typical know-nothing-newbie talk: take a simple concept that works, and think all it needs is to be made really complicated, adding mostly unnecessary steps - yeah, sure.
Everyone who has ever tried mounting a wind turbine on a building has found it unworkable and removed it. This includes big companies and small, and buildings from small cottages to airports. As with most facts of wind energy, none of this is apparent to people from outside the field. There would seem to be no logical reason a wind turbine on a building should not work great, but they never do, so far, despite a lot of attempts. I had one mounted on the parapet walls of a commercial building til the owner made us take it down, but meanwhile, even this small turbine on a cinder-block-and-steel building made a lot of noise inside, despite rubber pads integrated into the mounting system. a couple of decades ago, when āthe newsā said the new world trade center building would have wind turbine built in, Paul Gipe and I immediately countered, exclaiming emphatically āNO IT WILL NOT!ā How did we know? A little experience can go a long way. We recognized it as the typical know-nothing-newbie idiot talk it really was, whereas the average ordinary civilian bystander thought it sounded like a great idea. All those āreally smart peopleā with their multi-million-dollar promises, and we little people with actual experience can outguess them 1000:1 every time. It gets pretty funny after a while. Regarding AWE, I declared from day one 14 years ago that nobody in the field knew what they were doing and success was unlikely in the near term on that basis. I got to the point I would just say āidiots, idiots, idiotsā and then be censored with the reason āYou canāt just say āidiots idiots idiotsāā. Well the problem is, what if it;s true? I just canāt say what my years of experience in wind energy tells me? Nope canāt say the truth on the internet, as long as āthe really smart peopleā take control of the conversation and delete anything THEY canāt comprehend, true or not.
By all means Correct me. if my fair weather guess work goes interstellar. I must be realistic with known principles I know and thats Ok. Iām not expecting to smash the sound or light barrier any time soon. Elon musk stands a better chance than I do of that. The best I might achieve is a floating planter for some strawberries at this rate. I will Just fling a few spannerās and have fun doing it. Iām ok doing that.
Its not all mr crackpot today. no! sure I find it mysterious and interesting. Some of the things I brought up have fairly solid roots in engineering some going as far back as the ancient Greeks. Knowing you guys understand that means. Someone stands a better chance of success. What you call ānewbie talkā is just me enquiring. Why I mentioned the jet engine is purely down to the compressorā¦ and the fact the armish use wind compressor all the time to run equipment. As far as I was aware compressed air/ low pressure system didnāt follow the betz coefficient. More like Venturi. Much like steam turbine do. With 20ā30MPa being 90% efficient in some cases. A Francis turbine being 98% efficient.
Then you have things like tornados which have the lowest record isobar measurements of 5.72 inches. Which can toss a truck 5miles easy. The measurements are already done.on how much air flow that can create. Trying to converse in factoids. It why I mentioned water in previous posts. And trying to equal that in air pressure and density. using the wind to somehow achieve that. That is flow rates in M/s. Right? Or am I wrong? Which is Related directly to the air mass flowing over a turbine. No big trade secrets there.
As for noise, sound mirrors, thereās always sound mirrors. Stonehenge is an example of acoustic damping where soundwaves rarely can be heard outside the outer ring of stones the same would apply here. It is totally possible these days to have noise cancellation. Especially because whole surfaces can be made into speaker thing. Iām probably being a massive techno geek. But Surely thatās part of the wave function that can be utilised? to cut down on vibrations which cause most the noise in the first place.I know it can be done by inverting the noise in a feedback loop much like how the the posh headphones do it and earbuds do it. Meaning you could be stood right by it and you wouldnāt know.
Iām not trying to discredit 14 years of hard graft. no. quite the contrary. I wish you well. I hope you bloody achieve something. With the multi Mw turbine.
I just know what Iām happy considering due to my apocalyptic resources. Being as scant as they are.
Definitely give me lots to think about and chew on. Iāve had this many time over the course of my life, he never make it then they freak out when I do. It aināt all bs. Nope it just the tool box that we have. With the materials available. It is impressive the work everyone does here. Keep it up. 
Just an example I found this morning,
I hadnāt realised when designing mine of other examples. On the drawing board: episode 86 trust wing tower. #wind turbine - YouTube glad to see I was in the same mind. As some.
It fails the test I described; sweep a lot of area and produce electricity at low cost. Also the combination of solar and wind is a telltale noob Ā«optimizationĀ». This is just a beautiful/ugly sculpture, but has nothing to do with lowering energy priceā¦
It did remind me of the angel of the north. Near Gateshead.
I hate to say it, but in most such cases Iāve seen, you might substitute ābrainlessā for ābladelessā. Such concepts as this one are so typical and redundant: Adding solar panels to even make it work at all, a complete disregard for the main thing a wind turbine needs (swept area), and a more-complicated-than-needed and far-less-efficient theory of operation. Ideas like this are so off-base they donāt even need to approach the āstuck in the muckā tar-pit stage. Instead, they represent a stillbirth, incapable of even seeing or getting to the tar pit. Besides the thousand somewhat legitimate attempts, there are the millions or even unlimited possible ways NOT to do wind energy
Wow palaeontology, neonatal midwifery and spannerās I am impressed. Didnāt think wind energy frequented such places. It must be the mass formation phycosis talking. Covid must be having a bigger toll on openness and understanding. I almost get the sense you feel threatened. Or even embarrassed. I know we aināt seen nothing yet. If a guy made this back in 1997 what else could be out there? Unseen. Unheard of. 25 years in engineering may as well get you to the other side of the galaxy.
With the millions spent on one thing or another. You be lucky if the tips of the swept area make 80% of total output. With the approaches as they are. Concentrated airflow always = high rpm. The approaches are valid which ever way you go. Be that low rpm with a large swept or high rpm and tight sweep. Dare I mention the power pod idea? Iād fear you have a full blown aneurism. It would be a shame to lose a man of that many talents. For all intensive purposes a garden podium at this stage. Somehow got you all eye twitching. Sure has it solar. it could also have any number of Awes attachments if the surface area is great enough. Bigger picture.
Even old factory ventilation fan would do the trick here. To further prove concepts. Augmenting systems with ancillary attachment would certainly help the cause. Think of the advertisement potential? Or even the ability to move air around using the wind. Much like a stack ventilation system. The central tower of the Houses of Parliament. And capital hill used the same systems before they were mechanical upgraded. So Iād be fairly confident it would work. The airflow in the central tower at the place of Westminster was measured once with Micheal portillio present. at 13m/s might of been higher. trusty, tried and tested. Servers hundred cubic feet/s + silent running.
Economy of scale as always comes in.
Itās a well know feature of civil architecture to mask a structure true purpose. There is a few I can recall from the London Underground alone. They were not tar pit ideas. Maybe Iām coming at this the wrong angle for you. Canāt really knock the effort though. Because thatās steam at its finest. One eye in on what been and the other looks and what can be done. All while in the present. The goal is to make cheep electric right? Nothing more Cheeper than free electricity for nominal expenses. When you are brass ass broke. You get extremely innovative with what you got. For me it been 4 years of trying in secret. For the most part. In every moment I can get. Most people spend 4K a year on energy bills. When they could just spent that once on an appropriate sized turbine to meet needs. Still would need regular safety check but that were the money will be. 3-5 years running then a check. Upgrades, extras much like combi boilers.usual product care ectā¦.so brain dead I think not. That how it done. All well know buisness models and operating procedures.
@Freeflying, nice to have some fresh, new input here, but Iām getting weary of trying to read through your long-winded attempts at a pretense of making a difference in wind energy. Bad wind ideas get old after awhile. Weāre really not here for just a bunch of nonsense. I donāt wanna throw the baby out with the bathwater, but really, youāre just coming in like a storm, but with nothing behind it but typical know-nothing-newbie assertions and pronouncements, mostly wrong. Your enthusiasm by far outweighs your knowledge. This is the kind of stuff that one could spend all day on, debunking sentence-by-sentence or even word-by-word, except your grammar, spelling, and sentence construction are so bad, it is difficult to even discern what you THINK you are talking about, let alone make sense of a lot of what you write here. I have tried to humor you as a well-meaning, curious and enthusiastic would-be contributor, and I would like be encouraging, but most of what I read is not even worded in such a way that I can make any sense of it whatsoever. Maybe try proofreading what you write, make sure your āsentencesā are even actual sentences, and take full advantage of the red underlines marking all your misspelled words, then correct the spellings. Really, a lot of people look at such ramblings as an IQ test - āCan he even spell?ā āDoes he have the attention span to craft a full sentence?ā, etc. Now I donāt expect any of us to have perfect English at every moment, and I will admit I see misspellings and grammatical errors in most āprofessionallyā-written articles I read, but you take the cake. I hereby confer upon you an award for the worst English writing of any AWE chat group participant Iāve ever seen, in the current 14-years of hype. I originally assumed you were not a native English speaker and overlooked the faltering communication abilities, because I learned long ago that everyone has a different way of communicating and it is more productive to assess what the person is saying than how they say it, but in this case I am left wondering what it is you are even trying to say half the time. It is fun reading your ramblings, and maybe there is even a gem or two in there somewhere, but honestly, most of it is non-discernible to me as far as meaning. Try starting with the helpful red lines under your misspelled words. That is a good starting place. Beyond that I may have to start not responding to your posts because they are too difficult to wade through when trying to make any sense out of them. Spellcheck - a great advance! It wonāt do everything for you, but at least it is a start.
Have a McDay! 
No it was a Yahoo Group, which were all terminated, lest people be allowed to express opinions freely. In the early days, even NREL people were on it, til one day they were there no more. You could tell the bosses had decided it was a bad idea for their employees to just be out there saying stuff without it being official. The internet was free at one time. Those were the days! 
Frankly English was never ever strong point for me. Only basic literacy. Predictive text added more layers of mystery. Should have made it easy, nope! When my brain runs at a million miles a second. Nice to know, I actually suck at communicating. no matter where I go. Iām probably better off using pictograms. Though, I fear that would be a puppet show, and a mime act roles into one.
The morning diet of YouTube for want of better things to do. the best I achieve under the layers of thought and discovery. Started today, with some interesting finds, some that are inline with the brainstorming. Others are old ideas but might help?
Started the day with
Followed by,
Which lead into
And ended with
Which left me wondering? Thinking awesome and how Can it be adapted? Air volume=> mass. increased flow rate. increases the volume air flow over contact surfaces. Which then means more power. Under e=mc2. never mind the similarity with singularities. due to (Black holes) vortex rings. They are depicted way back on art work. like the borre style ring chain decoration. Third from the top in plan view.
An interesting idea I got from them vortex shedding video was when looking at the whip tails. Then thinking to myself, what if they were Magnetic strip? the surface they on a conductor?
On The last video in the list .I think would work better if on a big tripod. So That could freely spin 360ā much like swing at the park but full 360ā. Much like a crank setup. Powered in this case by vortex shedding, resonance And gravity.
My head exploded as per. Which got me here, feeling like an imposter. Recognising potential, Iām struggling to realise. I will probably go quiet. Head aches and all. Then go techno stealth ninja 
. It time for breakfast. a cup of tea. a breather for everyone.
Congratulations on ending at perhaps the silliest of the silliest wind energy wannabe device. If one were trying to construct a trap to lure idle wind energy wannabes, there is no better bait than this device that provides such a good laugh, year after year. Suitably, it is applied to an equally laughable wind resource: air movement from road traffic. You are proving to be very good at āchecking all the boxesā.
OK is that a real sentence?
Donāt worry, exploding your head couldnāt make things any worse at this pointā¦
But thank you very much for the link about magnetic gears a few days ago!
The last video link I shared. I know is only upscale version form of hard drive reader you find in pc. Robert Murray smith on YouTube went into some detail about such devices, being highly efficient. Silly 
as they might be. If you only need it ? to charge a mobile phone, run an induction hob, light high output lEDs ? Its not silly at allā¦ I know many people with enough wire, 4*2, plywood an flat bar who could build one. Extreme apocalyptic builders. could build one. We all have probably seen a doctor who episode. where he builds the most advanced equipment out of unlikely household items.
The point Iām making. for the million attempts made. It only need one to succeed. It doesnāt matter too much, about how its made. Or achieved. Just that some bothered to try. Otherwise we will all become a little ignorant with each passing day. The biggest complaint that Iāve noticed is when you go looking. to find if the technology already exist? Or even if it exists at all? That Bound to take up 90% of total production time if your lucky. I know too may people, myself including who fall into that category. Mines hyper focused ocd driven on wanting to know. So it shotgun brainstorming. Its major weakness of all production engineering. Often not stopping to realised what has been. This is the core and foundation of engineering knowledge.
If it seam bad? that because it is! gone are the days, where the brits could turn out ships, ten to the dozen. Make anything on mass and flood the market. Green technology evolution has come along way since it roots. Pumping coal mine, grinding grain. Air conditioning. Cold storage wind and sails. We all know it has much further to come. Before it widely accepted like it used to be.
The issue is the target audience. I could make it worse? It is only a reflection of the reality of wind energy and the market as a whole. Now with a conflict over resources looming large. that is only going to get harder. I canāt make this anymore worse than it is. The landscape is ever changing. It is never a trap to explore ideas Doug, it is why we ended up. with a million renditions of meat loaf two out of three aināt bad. Pub karaoke nights are a big example of that.
So in wind energy terms. we have a mountain of attempts. not all got up and made a difference. what it did comminuted was, a idea that it is out there! Should someone wish to pick up that mantle? and run with it!
Magnetic gears definitely are something I came across a few years back when thinking I donāt have a mill to make my own gear. could I use magnets? The computer said yes! which I was thrilled with. found out about poly magnetic at the same time. Something that I knew was Beneficial to the cause. High field strength, means output. Then you have soliton waves. which can be induced in the conductor to boost ouput. Aided by poly magnetics. I can go on and on. I Just havenāt had anyone with Sufficient knowledge to ask? till recently. Totally missing a phd quantum mechanics guy To ask. In all its knowledge thatās worth more than gold. With oil industry in decline. War on the door. it about time wind energy pulled up it bootstraps. got down trading in volts, amps and watts. Just to screw with the petrodollars. And these narcissistic warmongerings. Electricity will be the new coin. Iām fairly sure about that. the best thing is the little guy can get in on it. Spend and afternoon with the kids a few tools and all is good!
Instead of the dogš© of global warfare. Yes you have a role in that peace making. Should you want the mantle? By default AWEs architecture has a role in global peacemaking.
Thats just how important it is! As long as AWEs has variety it will succeed! Iād bet Ā£100 of the finest. that Elon musk would be on board with that! Should anyone dare ask?
The idea in that video has been long-debunked in these AWE chat groups. In a real wind group, ādebunkingā it would not be necessary. It debunks itself. Yes it is a trap, and it even has a name: Itās called the āLook, it wiggles!ā approach to wind energy. Iām embarrassed to say I am the one who so identified it. Weāve had nutcases promoting it here before. It is a symptom of a common malady, which is thinking one can improve wind energy without knowing anything about it. There are unlimited ways NOT to do wind energy. Most people donāt know the difference.
The other two fallacies in this specific implementation are that:
Obviouslyā¦
Below there is a video showing an interesting invention: a wind turbine. Basic explanations help to understand how it works.
