AirborneWindEnergy: For More Power From On High (Luke1:3KJV)

Here is a “classic” JAL/kPower video showing how simple kite energy can be. It’s the smallest scale power kite, and it could be pumping water or charging batteries just as well.

looping foil, pumping air - YouTube

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For that, a good theory is desirable, using a correct exponent K, not 1.3, but 2 or slightly above 2 for a flexible wing.

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Seems like that video is from well before the “JAL” theme?
I should be more specific: Something that works as well as, or better than, existing wind energy devices. One simple fact is always there as a backdrop: There are virtually unlimited ways to make SOME power from the wind, at SOME cost. Almost none of them are an economical energy solution. If that unbalanced rotor causing an intermittent pull on a line is the answer, then it might be worth building a demo of sufficient quality to spin a generator and take some data, or power something useful on a regular basis. The “Look! It wiggles!” theme is only a tease. What the world wants to see is “Look at this power curve!”.

So now we have DS vs AE wars… :joy: @dougselsam @AweEnthusiast

R-SQUARED Kite Scaling Law

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Another Kite Scaling Law with many applications-

r-squared scaling by JAL
Complex Mass Scaling- all scaling laws beyond square-cube idealization.

All wings have some mass. Mass is parasitic.

power-kite membrane v. rigid-wing slab mass

AirborneWindEnergy Scaling

Peter Lynn’s Power Law Scaling b = ~1.00

(10) (PDF) The application of allometric scaling principles to predict pharmacokinetic parameters across species (researchgate.net)

This is an interesting study for some means to scale. I think @Rodread more or less uses this method for his rotary device by implementing rings and rotors scaling up from the bottom (where the generator is settled) and the top (before the lifter kite). Another example of rotary device is given below, coming from the old forum:

Now a question would be: what practical apply could be found for a non rotary device if it exists, apart from lifter kites?

K = 2 (mass increasing with area, so mass / area ratio being steady).
Scaling exponents used by Markus Sommerfeld perfectly work and are currently used. There is no reason to change them. The basis for a curve of scaling is the span and the mass of the wing.

Don’t kid yourself, Tallak. What you see is DaveS (KiteFreak), with his latest fixation theme, “Jalbert”, posting on John’s account. Going through his typical paralysis-by-analysis musings that will likely lead nowhere.
It;s OK with me - I don;t see any reason to comment on it beyond noting who is really posting here. As long as everyone is having fun, that;s the main thing… :slight_smile:

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I was thinking I should not act so dismissive of this off-balance, flailing kite operating a bicycle pump. I had asked for “something that works”, and this does indeed work. And it seems original, as in, you don’t see that every day.

However, I also don’t want to go to far toward actually promoting what was presented in that video. Reason? Well, just as letting your kite pull itself up out of the sand ballast you had piled upon it, thereby briefly and sequentially lifting some of the sand, which would be expected, does not amount to a useful excavation device, or a new clean energy solution for the world, the twirling kite operating a bicycle pump is not a way to power the electric grid.

We don’t know if the pump was actually pumping air into a tank, or if the tank was actually pressurized, since you can’t read the meters in the video. More likely, the tank was relatively empty, so the pump was free to operate without much resistance.

And obviously there was no electricity being generated, even though one could claim that compressed air could eventually power a generator, or be used to power compressed-air tools, etc.

So, while we shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, it is a way to use a kite to produce some power. It looks closer to a high-school-level science-fair project than an elementary school project, but however crude, it is a start.

Since electricity has become the standard power source, that’s usually what wind and solar are used for, and remember, we’re supposed to be replacing all those dreaded “windtowers”.

I would say though, it is a “half-baked” concept - not sufficiently demonstrated to get most people too excited, and obviously no electricity was generated, which is what the world is so eagerly awaiting. And reciprocating action of any kind can be problematic with regard to longevity, considering material wear and fatigue.

So it does demonstrate the beginnings of a principle - there is some power being provided by a kite, so that checks a box. I would only say that, rather than discarding the idea out of hand, I’d say it should be developed further, if someone is truly interesting in pursuing it.

It’s not likely to develop itself - someone would have to do it. So I would acknowledge that it “works”, so thanks for the review of that old video. Now I guess it depends if it gets developed and refined.

Powering an existing coal or nuke plant’s generator is a long way from intermittently pulling on a bicycle pump. Someone would have to become interested enough to refine it, go through some iterations and improve upon it.

So many words

Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/03/23/same/

This applies to all of AWE current power generation projects, which are now more than 10 years old, with the results that we know.

And I’m sure this is not the first time someone has volunteered this same supposed Einstein quote on whatever AWE forum is in effect. John has been "Pro-tem president of some supposed AWE organization for one seventh (1/7) of a century, while “authors” are still citing Altaeros as a current AWE effort. Funny how many years we all sat in abject hope and admiration over Makani, while the whole time they were getting ready to just give up… And now, we’re stuck between waiting for any real news out of Skysails, and Dave Santos going from bicycle pump to Terawatts.
What about Magenn? Run it as a magnus kite-reeler! I guess we’re all just still waiting for kite-reeling to “really get started”… :slight_smile:

By process of elimination, the downwind Surface Approach Sector is favored for South Pole Wind Energy, giving plenty of clearance to air transport operations. Power-kite AWE is the favored form of Wind Energy by lowest mass and most flexible deployment. A summer AWES demo would be a logical starting goal, with some contribution of power to the Station. Temporary electrical line shallow trenched as needed. Output of about 100kW from a footprint of about 300m diameter under a fight ceiling of about 100m.

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That would fulfill the most important traditional requirement for AWE proposed siting: That the site be sufficiently remote that nobody can verify whether it is even running, let alone how well. Best if the location is so remote that repairs, parts delivery, and maintenance, are as difficult as possible.:slight_smile:

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Let’s Keep in mind revolutionary modern technologies that first gained a remote foothold. Integrated circuits and solar cells found use on satellites before being commonplace.
More-

Power Kites have already proven essential in Polar Exploration.

Ramón Larramendi - Polar Explorer | Official Site (ramonlarramendi.com)

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Thanks for that Dave. Don’t forget “The Wright Brothers”. If AWE systems were advancing as fast as airplanes 120 years ago, they would be in common use by now. The solar cells used in satellites were well-proven on Earth before anyone sent them into space. They didn’t just send their all-talk experimental prototypes into space to see how they worked. You guys have been going on with your endless nonsense and excuses for 14 years now. You never stay on any one concept for more than a few months, and never get anything working at all. I’d say, rather than talking about finding a sufficiently-remote test site that nobody can see how badly your dream-only wannabe-system is failing, try actually building and running a system that produces significant power NOW, NOT putting it off to talk about the remotest site you can possibly think of. That is nothing but your typical attempts at diversion of attention from the fact that you guys still can;t even think of a single decent way to do AWE, let alone build one, let alone run one… You can talk forever. Means next-to-nothing.

The question is whether remote sites are valid proving grounds for exotic technology destined to become commonplace,

Solar cells did take over a century to develop before first finding remote use in space, but now common almost everywhere-

Timeline of solar cells - Wikipedia

Just so, the “first powering of homesteads by kite” are nomadic homes at sea (Race for Water) and ice caps (Windsled). In time will come mainstream home power.

As usual Dave, trying to change word definitions to fit whatever your ever-shifting narrative may be on any given day. Some would just call it “lying”. Pulling a boat is NOT powering a house. Even if someone lives on the boat, moving a house is not powering a house. Nice try, once again. Threatening to power X hundred homes by date Y at remote location Z is not powering a house, just like pulling a boat is not powering a house. Pulling a boat (or surfboard) was how this whole AWE thing started for most people. Nobody ever called windsurfing “powering a house”.

True.
What is meant is these vehicles are “motor homes”, true livable homes whose motive power happens to be power kites.

There is a 32 foot yacht with two V-8 engines, parked in my backyard. Nobody has ever called it a “house”.
You really have nothing left but a few tired remaining gasps of hot air.
You can stop now. Come back and let the world know how your Jalbert triangles are working. Not before, after. No more fake “news of the future” from you.

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The motive power is solar panels and electric motors, and I’m sure they have a gas engine somewhere for when they really need to go.