AirborneWindEnergy: For More Power From On High (Luke1:3KJV)

Hi Guys: OK I was reading this latest back-and-forth, thinking to myself how glad I was that someone other than me was handling the situation.

“Wow”, I thought. “amazing how quickly a supposedly technical conversation can degenerate into the black void of ignorance, dragging the participants into that void, and what a waste of ones life that can be. And also, that maybe, by now, people are starting to appreciate what I went through for 12 years of trying to hold the ground of reason, and maintain some semblance of sanity in the face of a persistent fire-hose of extreme levels of complete nonsense in these forums.”

As I was thinking this, it seemed that divine forces had come together as I simultaneously heard, on a video that was also running on my computer, the following passage of about a minute-and-a-half, in this video covering Tesla cars:

The passage has to do with the futility of arguing with idiots, and
plays from 16:15 to 17:47.
LINK:

That’s 16:15 to 17:47

If you are like me, I’m pretty sure you will find yourself reflecting “these guys are saying exactly what I’ve been thinking”.

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Indeed it is like a trap. I think the best thing is to avoid any interference. At least that’s what I’m going to try.

PierreB, I may not be in a position to ascertain the veracity of any claim in an email I did not write. I personally however would allow for misunderstandings and misinterpretations and not conclude ‘false witness bearing’ until it is beyond all doubts whatsoever.

Can we please make this topic hidden?
Only available to prior contributors…
It’s gone away too far from technical.

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Instead of having a single topic per concept or idea John posted, I moved them into a single topic. John agreed to this. By doing it like this I made an implicit agreement that I would allow this topic. A big part of the reason the topic is like it is, is because John, or JAL, is not following the quote below from the FAQ, and the other posters are perhaps not following other parts of the FAQ, like I am here posting off-topic.

Corrected typos in bold.

Following things like the FAQ is good practice in any discussion to have a rewarding experience. The consequences of not following it vary from place to place, you could be banned or shunned or beaten up in some places or it could result in topics like these in others.

That part of the FAQ was added because an unsupported claim is indistinguishable from misinformation, and misinformation is actively harmful on a forum where you’re trying to do and learn new things. Make too many unsupported claims and nothing you say can be trusted anymore, and perhaps should get you banned in any applied science forum, just like your papers would be rejected by your peers.

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I would note that over the years, certain highly-enthusiastic people, who nonetheless consistently demonstrate an inability to participate in AWE, degenerate into simply lying about practically everything, far beyond any single instance of “bearing false witness”. I remember, for example, showing one of these people every detail of my demo flying sky serpent at the first High Altitude Wind Power conference, including how the generator was connected to a visible bank of car batteries and charging them, with current and voltmeters visible to read, and then, years later, having to defend against accusations from that same person that:

  1. There were no batteries
  2. The batteries were not connected
    And it went on from there, with no end - just blatant false statements, whether from sheer ignorance, forgetfulness, or intentional deceit. At some point it didn’t matter - the source had destroyed his own credibility, and his deceptive statements had become a topic in themselves. I think most people had given up on expecting any positive results from this entire deceptive and nonsensical group, not just the single person. Now we seem to have reached a new low, reminiscent of other controversies in the world which have no solutions, but just degenerate into diversional attempts to change the subject into nonsense, to avoid acknowledging the ongoing, relentless, lack of results… In the present case, I would say these controversies have affected the good sense of the people who claim to be moderating this forum, in allowing continued input from someone who they banned, with added nonsense of a nonscientific nature, added from a third party. I would say if moderators are going to ban someone for nonsense, have the backbone to stick with your convictions, and you would not find yourselves in this position.
    You feel pushed into putting up with this due to exterior mind-control. Maybe show a little resistance to the mind control, and stick with what you say you are doing, and you would not have this problem.

Is this forum for technical matters only?

Thanks, @Windy_Skies
I have refrained also from complaining about your discretion in moving my topics as you deem fit. Permit me to add that what is unintelligible to some might be well comprehensible, obvious even to others.

True but that does not rescue complete off-topic nonsense, from being off-topic nonsense.
I’ve been part of standing up for facts in wind energy for many years before AWE became “a thing”. The “A” of “AWE” is just a recent addition to (subset of) “WE” (wind energy), which is itself a subset of “E”, which is “energy”.
If we imagine a Venn Diagram, you have a larger circle inside of which is “energy”, then a smaller circle inside that which is “wind energy”, then a still smaller circle which is “airborne wind energy”.
In all cases the requirement of providing evidence for any announced “breakthrough” is evidence, usually in the form of power output data.
When anyone announces a questionable energy breakthrough, but cannot provide any evidence, it is normally to be ignored.

When someone comes into a discussion of introducing new ways of producing energy, there is a standard response: Show us your data.

As is often the case, the promoter of some “breakthrough” HAS NO evidence, or tries to provide unconvincing “change-the-subject” rationalizations for forced celebration of their “breakthrough” ahead of the fact. We often hear the same old, tired responses such as 3 steps - first denial, then resistance, finally acceptance - citing such a situation does not mean it applies to any one particular claimed “breakthrough”. It would be just as accurate to say "Stupid ideas go through 3 steps:
“Skepticism of experts,
failure to provide evidence in the face of laughter,
quietly going away (abandonment).”
That is far more common, and in fact in the field of wind energy, it describes nearly 100% of “breakthroughs”.

What used to be the very simple routine response: “Connect a generator and show us your output” has been turned on its head in the face of this new crop of the world’s biggest talkers, making the world’s biggest unfounded claims, unable to generate any significant power, yet now quoting bible verses in lieu of producing any power. It is the silliest “technical” conversation I could ever imagine, and it just goes to show you how quickly the entire world would degenerate if such people had any power to force their ridiculous views on the rest of us. We would end up with no energy whatsoever, with the few surviving people back to living in grass huts in a stone-age existence, cooking on a dung fires after having denuded the landscape of trees, without even a single feeble light bulb by which to read, which would probably be irrelevant because nobody would know how to read anyway…

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Back to studying scaling that MaxL and I had moved into network fractal scaling theory, building on Culp Thickness Factor.

[Sommerfeld 2022] neglected AR as a scaling factor by assuming AR10 for all its rigid wing cases.

Fractal Network Scaling helpfully introduces negative scaling exponents to AWES Scaling Theory.

Allometric Laws of Biological Systems inform complex AWES design.

Phase Transitions as Critical Phenomena bound Power Law distrubutions.

Kite scaling phase transitions- polymer molecule, fiber, strand, thread, cloth, panel, sail, network.

Scale-free properties are inherently scalable in linear ranges.

L System production rules and Iterated Function Systems IFS

Power Laws in the linear regions of Normal Distributions.

Sierpiński Triangle and Carpet are usefully kite-like geometry-topology

Self Affine Fractal Tilings for kites

Kleiber’s Law (3/4 Scaling Power Law) applies to kite scaling

One need only calculate the thickness factor between soft and rigid and see what numbers result.

Dave Culp 20yrs ago identified thickness as a critical scaling dimension

In fact, the exponent calculator matches Kiteship real kite mass-scaling data

SS AR is not an a-priori factor “known before scaling” in a numeric model.

If soft kite MSE was 2 or more, Peter Lynn’s wisdom would be wrong. He puts it close to 1.

Mass only exists in 3 dimensions, and thickness is just as vital as span and chord.

1.3 was my calculated result, so I stand by it.

We patiently await third party resolution of objections.

Now happily pondering the Kite Thickness dimension.

In fact, the exponent calculator matches Kiteship real kite mass-scaling data.

SS AR is not an a-priori factor “known before scaling” in a numeric model.

If soft kite MSE was 2 or more, Peter Lynn’s wisdom would be wrong. He puts it close to 1

Its JAL that supplies AR1.5 for SS power kites of NPW and OL proportions

[Sommerfeld] does not try to calculate MSE based on low AR soft kites.

[Sommerfeld et al, 2022] simply assumes AR10 for all the rigid wings.

SS kites like the OL and NPW are about AR1.5

When lower AR is accounted for, MSE for SS kites of 1.3 is good approximation that fits Kiteship data and Lynn on soft kite scaling.

Which “model”? Chord and AR of of SS kites are definitely not modeled.

Ampyx formula does NOT calculate from chord or AR data, but “wing span”

“Aircraft mass m and inertia J are scaled relative to the Ampyx AP2 reference model (Licitra, 2018; Malz et al., 2019; Ampyx, 2020) according to simplified geometric scaling laws relative to wing span bscaled (Eqs. 6 and 7):”

I used the calculator after rechecked kiteship mass-scaling of real kites. This looks right to me-

No, chord is neglected in the Ampyx model because AR >0

MSE of 1.3-1.5 fits the data of KiteShip kite mass-scale and Peter Lynn’s copied soft-kite scaling comment.

Ampyx treated Wing Span as a single Length dimension, while Area is clearly a squared L dimension. In fact, all Wing Spans have a Chord Dimension, or Ampyx’s calculation would not work even for skinny wings.

WS always has A, via >0 AR.

That’s a hidden exponent factor.

kPower has discussed Scaling MSE with Dr Langbein exactly as shared.

MSE ~1.5 for SS scaling as calculated by Area.

[Sommerfeld et al 2022] calculates scaling from WS.

WS is not simple 1D L, but 2D (WS L x Chord L).

kPower has always used A (L-squared) of a low AR kite.

JAL estimate was quite close at MSE 1.3 for SS Wing.

MSE 1.5 is a calculated match to Kiteship OL mass data.

Thanks to Rod for adding Network Scaling in the mix.

Accounting for thickness dimension of real wings, he will not be simply stating “definitely wrong”, but expanding the scientific formulation of MSE to better fit Kiteship data and Peter Lynn expertise.

Kite cloth is as thin as paper, but a large rigid wing is thick as a dictionary.

KiteLab Groups worked out these mass-scaling factors on the old Forum.

They contribute to the amazing MSE of ~1.3, as a function of thinness.

Define this theory please, as well as the following statements from “Kite scaling” to “kite scaling”.

Markus Sommefeld has left no stone upturned. His scaling analysis perfectly stands. The wingspan and the mass are enough to establish the scalability, whatever the wings, flexible or rigid, and their aspect ratio.

As I mentioned, exponent K = 1.3 cannot stand with the exponents K = 2.7, 3, and 3.3 given by the author.

The square–cube law (or cube–square law ) is a mathematical principle, applied in a variety of scientific fields, which describes the relationship between the volume and the surface area as a shape’s size increases or decreases. It was first described in 1638 by Galileo Galilei in his Two New Sciences as the “…ratio of two volumes is greater than the ratio of their surfaces”.[1]

To put it simply, the square law leads to an exponent K = 2 (area), while the cube law leads to an exponent = (more or less in practice) 3 (volume). As a result your 1.3 is a nonsense beside 2.7, 3, and 3.3 given by the author.

Just below is a sketch (from the figure 3), adding scaling of a soft kite by the square law (K = 2), so by keeping the same weight / area ratio whatever the kite size:

I hope the people running this site realize this post was by “KiteFreak”.

Many sources, just two samples

Fractals and Scaling: Metabolic Scaling Introduction & Kleiber’s law - YouTube

“Fundamental role in natural science and engineering”

Scaling laws and fractals (Chapter 7) - Scaling (cambridge.org)

SS Kites scale like the blue line

Inline image

Exponential functions (davidwills.us)

He often pivots back to this theme that somehow he is one of the enlightened few people really tuned in to the concept of the well-known cube-square law.
Meanwhile it’s a major theme in every beginning engineering course… :slight_smile:

To tell the truth, I wonder it, given his graphics with K =1.3 beside K = 2.7, or 3, or 3.3 given by the author. 1.3 as exponent K would lead to a lesser increasing of mass than of area!

I say enough of the endless theory, Let’s see something that works! :slight_smile:

Here is a “classic” JAL/kPower video showing how simple kite energy can be. It’s the smallest scale power kite, and it could be pumping water or charging batteries just as well.

looping foil, pumping air - YouTube

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For that, a good theory is desirable, using a correct exponent K, not 1.3, but 2 or slightly above 2 for a flexible wing.

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Seems like that video is from well before the “JAL” theme?
I should be more specific: Something that works as well as, or better than, existing wind energy devices. One simple fact is always there as a backdrop: There are virtually unlimited ways to make SOME power from the wind, at SOME cost. Almost none of them are an economical energy solution. If that unbalanced rotor causing an intermittent pull on a line is the answer, then it might be worth building a demo of sufficient quality to spin a generator and take some data, or power something useful on a regular basis. The “Look! It wiggles!” theme is only a tease. What the world wants to see is “Look at this power curve!”.

So now we have DS vs AE wars… :joy: @dougselsam @AweEnthusiast

R-SQUARED Kite Scaling Law

============

Another Kite Scaling Law with many applications-

r-squared scaling by JAL
Complex Mass Scaling- all scaling laws beyond square-cube idealization.

All wings have some mass. Mass is parasitic.

power-kite membrane v. rigid-wing slab mass

AirborneWindEnergy Scaling

Peter Lynn’s Power Law Scaling b = ~1.00

(10) (PDF) The application of allometric scaling principles to predict pharmacokinetic parameters across species (researchgate.net)