This is just the sound of a complete inability to even conceptualize a working wind energy system, introducing instead “mission creep” where even just the wish for a diversion to a completely different topic is substituted for any acumen whatsoever for accomplishing wind energy in any form.
16 years ago, I first heard about what was supposed to have been breakthrough thinking in wind energy: the Loyd patent. I heard it involved the fact that a kite could pull a string, and that could potentially be used to spin a reel, a concept that occurred to me as an elementary school kid already taught to build my own kites. And of course I also learned Loyd’s pivotal patent had not only gotten the terminology of a drag machine versus a lift machine backwards, but that nobody in AWE besides me had any knowledge of this fact, and instead it was being repeated by a bunch of wind energy know-nothings, accomplishing next-to-nothing in wind energy, all the while congratulating themselves ahead of any fact, on saving the world due to their “brilliant minds”.
I’d suggest here that any successful effort to get AWE off the ground might be accomplished by someone who has never read any “paper” on airborne wind energy whatsoever.
It is much more than a wind turbine, it is an interactive system combining elements such as water and wind to make the energy of the future.
This patent opened a path to the AWE, which is the energy of the future, with now hundreds of publications to its credit. We can hope that thousands of publications will see the light of day.
These are real innovations that have made conventional wind power what it is, unlike the previous two (AWE and water + wind).
And of course, within maybe one minute, my quite likely accurate, and completely on-topic reply to a topic about AWE literature, was moved to a non-topic “topic” by a guy who was last seen posting about the thermal characteristics of tungsten at 2000 degrees C. This is where AWE has come in 16 years - a “discussion” where any insightful input is immediately squelched by “moderation”, while still, not a single AWE system can be found in regular operation anywhere in the world, and yet the people running forums on the subject remain with their heels dug in, pretending they know anything about anything, demanding 100% control over any comment anyone might have, no matter how accurate, as it must conform to their emotion-based wishes for how the world could only be if others shared their “vision”. All par for the course. By this point, I would not expect anything else. 
Hi Doug, I think your comment is still there: Questioning the Stefan–Boltzmann Law and Questions About Radiative Heat Loss - #19 by dougselsam.
Yes, that is it.
Yes, that is it.
Hi Doug,
The reason is probably because we don’t open our spam boxes often enough.
I just opened mine, and I see a message from who-we-know, titled:
“Scale-Invariant Kagome Lattice Bi-Layer Topology from Molecular Polymer to Kite-Network Scale”.
I will spare you its contents.
The Kagome lattice as a mechanism-based mechanical metamaterial – Xuenan Li
That sounds interesting enough. Let’s hope the person mentioned is able to write intelligibly on their contributions and how it fits into existing work.
Dave probably likes Kagome lattices as they involve triangular pieces of cloth, and with that it’s likely easier to ensure the cloth is in tension. I don’t know about the Kagome lattices though as they seem to be 2d, and they, from the video, have multiple possible stable states where you would probably like only one.
Towards the beginning of the video also 3d structures are mentioned. That’s interesting I think. You can think of a 3d form you want your kite network / lattice to take when compressed, a parachute shape say, and then design the structure to be like that when the sides are compressed. When the sides are not compressed the shape lies flat.
An AWE concept could be 3 or more posts some distance from each other between which you would hang the lattice sheet. Then when you want to launch it, you cinch a line around the perimeter of the lattice, “compressing” it and allowing it to billow out into its 3d shape, hopefully upwards. Then you let out the lines from the posts, and the shape hopefully describes a crosswind pattern from which winches in the posts can extract energy.
You could perhaps do several layers.
Timestamp of a Kagome lattice deforming given some specific preconditions: https://youtu.be/LYC9KE_CHF0?t=2913
Hello @Windy_Skies , I see you are interested about Kagome lattice within Dave’s topic title.
I don’t know enough about this subject, although certain connections with these publications seem obvious, for example concerning triangles and their beginnings in realization, as well as the text itself.
Maybe this is an opportunity to reinstate Dave. Indeed:“Suspension can be appealed after completing an academic writing course”. The mentioned references in his text reproduced below could be assimilated to academic sources, and the connections between the text and the references look to show some level of coherence, and could lead to later academic publications about the topic Dave is raising.
And in a field as complex and fragile as AWE research where the results can be not quite apparent, we cannot afford the luxury of closing a path, here for a kite network generation methodology, even if it seems narrow.
Now the task of moderation can be a difficult, if not impossible, task. Perhaps, if you intend to reinstate Dave, you could somehow try to contract with him (or vice versa) on what he can edit, if of course this does not give rise to oppositions.
Dave Santos’ text:
" Kite Networks is a disruptive paradigm in AWE, with periodic topological ordering under many-unit metamaterial dynamics as the governing mathematics, subsuming classical equations of motion at unit and meta-unit scale. This post reviews static kite network order, with dynamical energy harvesting by Spin-Network physics as the follow-on subject for another post. Attached slides provide a panoramic view of the ideas. Two papers linked relate state-of-the-art metamaterial molecular science to kite metamaterial concepts, under scale-invariance.
While Classic Kites take countless fantastic forms, highly effective most-common forms are primitive geometric shapes like circles, triangles, and rectangles. These unit primitives are traditionally periodically-ordered into various basic network topologies of kite trains, arches, and meshes. Modern empirical and heuristic kite network rigging emerges from Bell’s Cellular Kites of triangular fabric cells, which led to fully soft “Rogallo Lattices”.
Remarkably, these same basic topological orders hold across multiple engineering scales, from molecular polymer scale to scales of twisting, weaving, and braiding of polymer fibers into kite lines and fabrics, and ultimately to overall rigging design of GW-class kite networks. As Metamaterial engineering science flourishes, the AWE paradigm of energy-harvesting “KiteMatter” is co-evolving within the broader conceptual framework.
A particularly iconic topological motif is the Kagome Lattice, a triangular pattern basic to graphene and to current state-of-the-art kite network concepts (SpiderMill). Ongoing design refinement converges rather exactly with molecular models like “Kagome Lattice in Low-Angle Twisted Bilayer Graphene”.
“Overlaying two graphene layers with a small twist angle 𝜃 can create a moiré superlattice to realize exotic phenomena that are entirely absent in a graphene monolayer.”
“…an artificial kagome potential to generate and control multiple Dirac bands of graphene…unique high-order potential…natural multiperiodic components, enabling…band structures through different potential contributions…band components, each characterized by distinct dispersions, shift in energy at different velocities in response to the variation of artificial potential…significant spectral weight redistribution of the multiple Dirac peaks.”
Multiple GPTs affirm the basic soundness of the analogies being drawn and concur on the vast potential.
Attached are selected kite network diagrams showing emergence of bilayer kagome ordering over the last century of kite science.
Just intellectual curiosity. I don’t like kite networks.
If Dave wants to appeal the suspension he would need to write it himself and forward it to me through someone on the forum.
This text is a series of statements, facts, and claims with nothing given to back them up; argument, experiment, or reference. As such, the reader cannot follow along and check the work and it is not useful. It mimics the writing style of a paper without being one. If he does add references, they should go inline and give the page number that substantiates the claim I think. Given the continued lack of substantiation of claims in this, like in previous writing, I don’t see much of an improvement.
Really now…
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Game-changing ‘virtual factory’ offers all-weather offshore wind turbine repair (msn.com)
I’m seeing at least one per day of the term “Game Changer” or “Game Changing” in “Press-Release Breakthrough” articles that announce a great new apparatus in the headline, but when you read further you slowly realize it’s really about a mere rendering and a dream.
Some time ago I recognized the term “Game-Changer” as a negative indicator - that very term, to me, started to translate as “You can safely ignore this mere raw idea, that is now guaranteed to go nowhere.”
I think it would be interesting to accumulate a list of articles using versions of that term “game-changer”, and just see if any of them ever come true as a real solution, or even materialize as a real thing at all.
YouTube suggested:
Printing hinges and the like: Metamaterial Mechanisms
Veritasium did a video on the similar or identical idea of compliant mechanisms: Why Machines That Bend Are Better
On Elastic Geodesic Grids and Their Planar to Spatial Deployment
Generalized Deployable Elastic Geodesic Grids
Reduced-Order Simulation of Flexible Meta-Materials
I think this is interesting: Differentiable Stripe Patterns for Inverse Design of Structured Surfaces - Supplementary video although I don’t know if it has to be this complex. You’d attach ribs to a fabric and have either no spar or a spar with hinges, and then let the tether tensions determine the tension in the kite / blade fabric.
Timestamp in the below video that talks about the shape the fabric could take, if it were somewhat stretchy I think, variations of the catenoid idea.
Wow
If that was a defence of Dave S style on the basis of it being scientifically rigorous … it completely fails for me by starting with the grandiose unproven claim
" Kite Networks is a disruptive paradigm in AWE,
I love a kite network idea and sketch, flown and suspended a few too, but haven’t exactly set the world alight with them … continues the sentence with
with periodic topological ordering under many-unit metamaterial dynamics as the governing mathematics,
Great as that kagome lecture was, just because the word energy is associated with metamaterials, that deformation energy isn’t enough justification in and of itself to declare the following big loada squiggles maths which nobody ever tied to a kite is THE GOVERNING MATHEMATICS
I’m going to attempt to read the rest but
I’m not keen already
I tried
vague vague vague
wonder future visionary blah blah blah
He’s more shit at maths than even me
GPT Generative Pre-Trained Transformer GTF more like
@Rodread , thanks for this debunking. After all I found this text in my spam box. This is perhaps its best place, even if it would be one of Dave’s best texts. To emphasize:
I resume: all this lead to zero watt. Spam boxes are not good sources. I will try to remember.
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Zzzzzzzzzz…… zzzzzzzz…… zzzzzz
https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/largest-traction-kite
A 420 m² (4,521 ft²) traction kite manufactured by KiteShip Corporation (USA) was used to propel an 8.5 tonne (18,740 lb) yacht near Sydney, New South Wales, Australia, on 6 December 2004, the largest kite ever used to pull a vehicle of any kind. A traction kite is similar to the aerofoil kites flown by kiting enthusiasts, but on a much larger scale. In the context of yachting the kite is used to replace the spinnaker (although in this instance no other sails were flown in addition to the kite).
I don’t know if this record still stands.
I am checking with Airseas, i am not 100% sure they have used the 500m2 during sea trials.
It would make sense to me that a lifter kite with openings like this, or with multiple different airfoils, would be more stable. I don’t know the reasoning though. I’m guessing for this pill from the video, it’s that what’s causing the instability is vortex shedding, which is going to be chaotic coming from a symmetric body. Or that more air goes through the pill in the pill with holes, allowing less air and less force to go around the pill, giving it less force to move the pill.
Or from the comments:
Typically on a lift kite you get supplied with a streamer tail . . . Hundreds of ribbons bunched across a long rope. This attaches to a triangle bridle fixed across the trailing edge.
Tails on kites can be enormously long as they part lift themselves to/from their high attachment point
So that’s drag stability. flatter designs fly higher, drogue like designs drop lower/m
And it just works
but tail drag force will vary with wind speed differently to kite lift forces
so some steering harmonics/imbalances will arise outside of a happy range without tuning.
Stabilising lift on a kite - Nah ask an expert
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